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Solid post@MizzouGrad I love seeing all these thoughts. Its absolutely unfair and really harms the parity, but it does help our international athletes reach their goals.

Ultimately nothing will be done (I wouldnt think anyway) but i wonder as the overall landscape dries up if we see more programs shut down and get cut.

Or if there will always be some badass stragglers who go to the underfunded university without all the senior level talent around the room and do well at nationals.

We shall see.
Also sorry about Eirmen, he was a gem

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4 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

More than a competitive RTC, Army could use looser admissions standards for recruited athletes. It is one of the most selective schools in the country.

From being a grad and teaching there from 2012-15, I don't think that admission standards are holding them back from recruiting the ELITES.  According to multiple websites, wrestlers have a pretty high average GPA for FARGO all-americans.  I think it was 3.2 but I forgot what year it was.  If a recruit has only one "gross" deficiency in terms of admissions requirements like GPA, or SAT/ACT, or Class Rank, etc, they can go to the Prep School (Sometimes they get poached, since they are still fair game for recruiting.  Yes, I am talking to you Rutgers).  Cornell does pretty darn well and they have Ivy recruiting standards, so there are no excuses. 

The Academies have a leg up when it comes to recruiting, especially in the "non-counter" sports like Wrestling which have the 9.9 Scholarship cap.  Guys like Alex Hopkins and Noah Stewart who werent nationally known might have only gotten room and board and books as incentive.  West Point actually pays you a stipend to go there on top of a full ride.  I know one IVY coach that makes it a point to recruit prospective athletes who qualify for academic scholarships and grant in aid.  

Academy coaches, just like ivy coaches, know how to operate within the constraints they have.  I can definitively say, if there is a recruit who fails to meet multiple requirements, coaches can and will go to bad to get them accepted (at least to the prep school) so long as their character is not a concern.    

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The point of army and navy is to train officers. Wrestling (and the rest of the athletic programs) can be a part of that through the benefits gained in the sport, but the point of these teams is not to produce world/Olympic wrestlers. Yes, I know army has the elite athlete program, but that’s a bit different than a spot in West Point. The required military service also makes recruiting very difficult. 

And no, Cornell has virtually no issues with recruiting standards thanks to FLWC and the community college there/ag school. So it’s not comparable to the academies. 

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On 11/9/2019 at 7:16 AM, wrestlingnerd said:

Carl attracts donations. That fact is indisputable and unlikely to change anytime soon. NLWC will be exceptionally funded for as long as Cael keeps winning regularly. 

But a few things:

1. That article is four years old. 
2. There are other schools with richer alumni and all it takes is one exceptionally wealthy one to take an interest in the sport (see Cornell, Princeton)

3. Net assets matter, but more important is free cash flow. For the folks who don’t speak accounting, one is a snapshot in time of how much is “in the bank” while the other is a measure of how much much money is coming in and how quickly. None of that data shows that. 
 

It’s not just about two RTCs. But the point that very few schools can compete in a wrestling arms race is correct. 

I’m not an accountant but the attachments in the linked article do show revenue and expenses.   Maybe that’s not exactly  “how quickly,”  but isn’t that still “how much money is coming in/out” at least per year?

I agree I don’t know how much has changed since 2015, but according to that even HWC only had about $500k in revenue per year.  So when you factor in coaches and other expenses, even that doesn’t leave a ton left over for the wrestlers.

Looks like your point about 1 rich alumnus is true, if you look at the “annual support” chart, even NLWC was typically in the $500-$600k range annually, except for 2014  when it was nearly $6MM.

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5 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

The point of army and navy is to train officers. Wrestling (and the rest of the athletic programs) can be a part of that through the benefits gained in the sport, but the point of these teams is not to produce world/Olympic wrestlers. Yes, I know army has the elite athlete program, but that’s a bit different than a spot in West Point. The required military service also makes recruiting very difficult. 

And no, Cornell has virtually no issues with recruiting standards thanks to FLWC and the community college there/ag school. So it’s not comparable to the academies. 

I was talking about ELITE recruits who are already internationally proven and want to compete for world and olympic titles while still in college.  These are the people who are most likely to become national champions.  If you think that academy athletic departments don't care to create National Championships, you are wrong on that.  And you are wrong on three more points:

1.  Cornell does have specific criteria their recruited athletes must have to gain ADMISSION just like any other applicant.  FLWC athletes are not enrolled in Cornell, but a community college so students who have an academic deficiency can improve OR simply grayshirt.  Since they are not enrolled, they are still open to recruiting.  Army, Navy and Air Force have their own prep schools to get recruits up to speed academically and get extra training (FLWC is the same model but the academies did it first).  And Academy Prep school athletes are also open to recruiting since they are not enrolled.            

2.  Required military service does not make recruiting difficult at all.  Most college graduates spend 3-5 years after graduation living with their parents until they get the job they want (or just any job for that matter).  With the service obligation, you are just skipping that time doing work in a career that is there should you choose after your obligation is over.  If you were a parent who saw that immediately upon graduation (Pay grade O-1, 2LT in the army) your child would make $3287 per month plus a TAX FREE housing allowance & sustinence allowance of $1449 w/o Dependents or $1650 w/dependents (Fort Drum, NY) you would be sold pretty quickly.  As an O-3 (the pay grade would be for the last year and a half of your 5 year obligation) you would make a monthly $5847 salary, $2253 (Fort Drum, NY) tax free allowance.  And this is the salary for all services since they all share the same pay grades (Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Merchant Marine---Yes all of them have their own sercive academy.  Coast Guard and Merchant Marine are DIII sports schools).   You also get paid a monthly stipend for attending an academy (Athlete or not). 

3.  The point of Army and Navy (And Air Force, Goast guard, Merchant Marine) is not to "train officers."  Anyone can be trained.  Here are the mission Statements:

I.  "The U.S. Military Academy at West Point's mission is 'to educate, train, and inspire the Corps of Cadets so that each graduate is a commissioned leader of character committed to the values of Duty, Honor, Country and prepared for a career of professional excellence and service to the Nation as an officer in the United States Army.' "

II.  Naval Academy"To develop Midshipmen morally, mentally and physically and to imbue them with the highest ideals of duty, honor and loyalty in order to graduate leaders who are dedicated to a career of naval service and have potential for future development in mind and character to assume the highest responsibilities of command, citizenship and government."

III.  Air Force Academy:  "We educate, train, and inspire men and women to become officers of character motivated to lead the United States Air Force in service to our nation."

IV.  "The mission of the United States Coast Guard Academy is to graduate young men and women with sound bodies, stout hearts and alert minds, with a liking for the sea and its lore, and with that high sense of Honor, Loyalty and Obedience which goes with trained initiative and leadership; well-grounded in seamanship, the sciences and the amenities, and strong in the resolve to be worthy of the traditions of commissioned officers in the United States Coast Guard, in the service of their country and humanity."

V.  Merchant Marine Academy"To educate and graduate leaders of exemplary character who are inspired to serve the national security, marine transportation, and economic needs of the United States as licensed Merchant Marine Officers and commissioned officers in the Armed Forces."

Yes, Army and Air Force have the word "train" in their mission statement, but to simply say "train officers" is like saying the mission of other colleges and universities is simply "to educate people."

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8 minutes ago, Cptafw164 said:

I was talking about ELITE recruits who are already internationally proven and want to compete for world and olympic titles while still in college.  These are the people who are most likely to become national champions.  If you think that academy athletic departments don't care to create National Championships, you are wrong on that.  And you are wrong on three more points:

1.  Cornell does have specific criteria their recruited athletes must have to gain ADMISSION just like any other applicant.  FLWC athletes are not enrolled in Cornell, but a community college so students who have an academic deficiency can improve OR simply grayshirt.  Since they are not enrolled, they are still open to recruiting.  Army, Navy and Air Force have their own prep schools to get recruits up to speed academically and get extra training (FLWC is the same model but the academies did it first).  And Academy Prep school athletes are also open to recruiting since they are not enrolled.            

2.  Required military service does not make recruiting difficult at all.  Most college graduates spend 3-5 years after graduation living with their parents until they get the job they want (or just any job for that matter).  With the service obligation, you are just skipping that time doing work in a career that is there should you choose after your obligation is over.  If you were a parent who saw that immediately upon graduation (Pay grade O-1, 2LT in the army) your child would make $3287 per month plus a TAX FREE housing allowance & sustinence allowance of $1449 w/o Dependents or $1650 w/dependents (Fort Drum, NY) you would be sold pretty quickly.  As an O-3 (the pay grade would be for the last year and a half of your 5 year obligation) you would make a monthly $5847 salary, $2253 (Fort Drum, NY) tax free allowance.  And this is the salary for all services since they all share the same pay grades (Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Merchant Marine---Yes all of them have their own sercive academy.  Coast Guard and Merchant Marine are DIII sports schools).   You also get paid a monthly stipend for attending an academy (Athlete or not). 

3.  The point of Army and Navy (And Air Force, Goast guard, Merchant Marine) is not to "train officers."  Anyone can be trained.  Here are the mission Statements:

I.  "The U.S. Military Academy at West Point's mission is 'to educate, train, and inspire the Corps of Cadets so that each graduate is a commissioned leader of character committed to the values of Duty, Honor, Country and prepared for a career of professional excellence and service to the Nation as an officer in the United States Army.' "

II.  Naval Academy"To develop Midshipmen morally, mentally and physically and to imbue them with the highest ideals of duty, honor and loyalty in order to graduate leaders who are dedicated to a career of naval service and have potential for future development in mind and character to assume the highest responsibilities of command, citizenship and government."

III.  Air Force Academy:  "We educate, train, and inspire men and women to become officers of character motivated to lead the United States Air Force in service to our nation."

IV.  "The mission of the United States Coast Guard Academy is to graduate young men and women with sound bodies, stout hearts and alert minds, with a liking for the sea and its lore, and with that high sense of Honor, Loyalty and Obedience which goes with trained initiative and leadership; well-grounded in seamanship, the sciences and the amenities, and strong in the resolve to be worthy of the traditions of commissioned officers in the United States Coast Guard, in the service of their country and humanity."

V.  Merchant Marine Academy"To educate and graduate leaders of exemplary character who are inspired to serve the national security, marine transportation, and economic needs of the United States as licensed Merchant Marine Officers and commissioned officers in the Armed Forces."

Yes, Army and Air Force have the word "train" in their mission statement, but to simply say "train officers" is like saying the mission of other colleges and universities is simply "to educate people."

Most college grads spend 3-5 years unemployed, living with their parents?  You sound like a recruiter.  You also failed to mention that some parents may not be sold on the fact that their child could be sent to a foreign land to get  blown up, or suffer crippling PTSD, or become one of the 22 US Veterans who commit suicide every day.

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42 minutes ago, Cptafw164 said:

I was talking about ELITE recruits who are already internationally proven and want to compete for world and olympic titles while still in college.  These are the people who are most likely to become national champions.  If you think that academy athletic departments don't care to create National Championships, you are wrong on that.  And you are wrong on three more points:

1.  Cornell does have specific criteria their recruited athletes must have to gain ADMISSION just like any other applicant.  FLWC athletes are not enrolled in Cornell, but a community college so students who have an academic deficiency can improve OR simply grayshirt.  Since they are not enrolled, they are still open to recruiting.  Army, Navy and Air Force have their own prep schools to get recruits up to speed academically and get extra training (FLWC is the same model but the academies did it first).  And Academy Prep school athletes are also open to recruiting since they are not enrolled.            

2.  Required military service does not make recruiting difficult at all.  Most college graduates spend 3-5 years after graduation living with their parents until they get the job they want (or just any job for that matter).  With the service obligation, you are just skipping that time doing work in a career that is there should you choose after your obligation is over.  If you were a parent who saw that immediately upon graduation (Pay grade O-1, 2LT in the army) your child would make $3287 per month plus a TAX FREE housing allowance & sustinence allowance of $1449 w/o Dependents or $1650 w/dependents (Fort Drum, NY) you would be sold pretty quickly.  As an O-3 (the pay grade would be for the last year and a half of your 5 year obligation) you would make a monthly $5847 salary, $2253 (Fort Drum, NY) tax free allowance.  And this is the salary for all services since they all share the same pay grades (Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Merchant Marine---Yes all of them have their own sercive academy.  Coast Guard and Merchant Marine are DIII sports schools).   You also get paid a monthly stipend for attending an academy (Athlete or not). 

3.  The point of Army and Navy (And Air Force, Goast guard, Merchant Marine) is not to "train officers."  Anyone can be trained.  Here are the mission Statements:

I.  "The U.S. Military Academy at West Point's mission is 'to educate, train, and inspire the Corps of Cadets so that each graduate is a commissioned leader of character committed to the values of Duty, Honor, Country and prepared for a career of professional excellence and service to the Nation as an officer in the United States Army.' "

II.  Naval Academy"To develop Midshipmen morally, mentally and physically and to imbue them with the highest ideals of duty, honor and loyalty in order to graduate leaders who are dedicated to a career of naval service and have potential for future development in mind and character to assume the highest responsibilities of command, citizenship and government."

III.  Air Force Academy:  "We educate, train, and inspire men and women to become officers of character motivated to lead the United States Air Force in service to our nation."

IV.  "The mission of the United States Coast Guard Academy is to graduate young men and women with sound bodies, stout hearts and alert minds, with a liking for the sea and its lore, and with that high sense of Honor, Loyalty and Obedience which goes with trained initiative and leadership; well-grounded in seamanship, the sciences and the amenities, and strong in the resolve to be worthy of the traditions of commissioned officers in the United States Coast Guard, in the service of their country and humanity."

V.  Merchant Marine Academy"To educate and graduate leaders of exemplary character who are inspired to serve the national security, marine transportation, and economic needs of the United States as licensed Merchant Marine Officers and commissioned officers in the Armed Forces."

Yes, Army and Air Force have the word "train" in their mission statement, but to simply say "train officers" is like saying the mission of other colleges and universities is simply "to educate people."

Who was the last D1 national champ from Navy, Army or Air Force?

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23 minutes ago, jchapman said:

Most college grads spend 3-5 years unemployed, living with their parents?  You sound like a recruiter.  You also failed to mention that some parents may not be sold on the fact that their child could be sent to a foreign land to get  blown up, or suffer crippling PTSD, or become one of the 22 US Veterans who commit suicide every day.

You sound like someone who doesn't know anything about the military AND someone who cant read.  I never said unemployed.  I was referring to the FACT that upon graduation, even if they have a job, they havent found their career within the field of study they specialized in and don't have a high enough salary to pay their "student mortgage" plus the expenses of living on their own.    And, if you want to talk about suicides, how many non-veterans commit suicide every day?  I would wager its more than 22.  Seems like the upper middle class white collar types are more succeptible to that than a veteran.  

But you seem to know everything.  I'm glad you have your life all figured out and know so much about the dangers of warfare.  I am also assuming that you have an APA certification and know exactly how "crippling" PTSD is.  It isn't so bad with treatment.  Technically, half of america got PTSD in November of 2016. 

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6 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Who was the last D1 national champ from Navy, Army or Air Force?

Army:  2005 was a finalist (Phil Simpson).  Prior to that was 2001 (Mo Worthy). Prior to that was 1986 (Dennis Semmell).    1961 and 1962 was Army's only and last champ (Mike Natvig). 

Navy:  I don't care.

Air Force:  Kevin Hoy was a finalist (Lost to Mocco).  Don't think they ever had a champ. 

 

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1 hour ago, jchapman said:

Most college grads spend 3-5 years unemployed, living with their parents?  You sound like a recruiter.  You also failed to mention that some parents may not be sold on the fact that their child could be sent to a foreign land to get  blown up, or suffer crippling PTSD, or become one of the 22 US Veterans who commit suicide every day.

This guy ^^ Yea and plenty of parents would thrilled knowing there child received a great education, still got to train and compete at a high level and now at 22 they have a good job and possibly there career immediately ,while most there friends and peers move back home at 22 23 and spend the next 5 years of there life trying to find a job and figure everything out. And I’m pretty sure no parent wants there child to go to any conflict regardless but at the end of the day that’s not the parents call, if an individual wants to answer that call and sign on the dotted line then I’m pretty certain any parent would be thrilled to see there kid go the West Point /Annapolis route then just being a regular enlistee 

Edited by Antitroll2828

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23 minutes ago, Cptafw164 said:

You sound like someone who doesn't know anything about the military AND someone who cant read.  I never said unemployed.  I was referring to the FACT that upon graduation, even if they have a job, they havent found their career within the field of study they specialized in and don't have a high enough salary to pay their "student mortgage" plus the expenses of living on their own.    And, if you want to talk about suicides, how many non-veterans commit suicide every day?  I would wager its more than 22.  Seems like the upper middle class white collar types are more succeptible to that than a veteran.  

But you seem to know everything.  I'm glad you have your life all figured out and know so much about the dangers of warfare.  I am also assuming that you have an APA certification and know exactly how "crippling" PTSD is.  It isn't so bad with treatment.  Technically, half of america got PTSD in November of 2016. 

"Most college graduates spend 3-5 years after graduation living with their parents until they get the job they want (or just any job for that matter)."

Perhaps you don't under stand the definition of unemployed?

 

Annual number of suicides in the US per 100,000 population. 2000-2010:

Never served in military:  Women = 5.2  Men = 20.9

Veterans and Active Service:  Women = 28.7  Men = 32.1

 

If you seriously compared the disappointment of an election outcome to PTSD, then you are part of the problem.

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34 minutes ago, Cptafw164 said:

You sound like someone who doesn't know anything about the military AND someone who cant read.  I never said unemployed.  I was referring to the FACT that upon graduation, even if they have a job, they havent found their career within the field of study they specialized in and don't have a high enough salary to pay their "student mortgage" plus the expenses of living on their own.    And, if you want to talk about suicides, how many non-veterans commit suicide every day?  I would wager its more than 22.  Seems like the upper middle class white collar types are more succeptible to that than a veteran.  

But you seem to know everything.  I'm glad you have your life all figured out and know so much about the dangers of warfare.  I am also assuming that you have an APA certification and know exactly how "crippling" PTSD is.  It isn't so bad with treatment.  Technically, half of america got PTSD in November of 2016. 

There was a time to make the, "military pays better than the private sector" argument (directly after the GFC), but now is not the time.  College grads are in high demand at the moment because of low unemployment.  Telling a prospective student athlete that he has required military service making 3K a month for 4 years with challenging work/life balance isn't enticing at all. However, there is no better place to go for people looking to serve in the military, and especially those who want to make a long term career in it.  It's not an insult to say that state and private colleges are better suited for those looking to work civilian jobs, while the academies are better suited for those looking to serve in the military..It's just reality-and a good thing because the point of the military academies is to train people looking to serve in the military. These universities serve a purpose far more important than NCAA wrestling, and for most top recruits, that's not what they are looking for.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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4 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I’m not an accountant but the attachments in the linked article do show revenue and expenses.   Maybe that’s not exactly  “how quickly,”  but isn’t that still “how much money is coming in/out” at least per year?

I agree I don’t know how much has changed since 2015, but according to that even HWC only had about $500k in revenue per year.  So when you factor in coaches and other expenses, even that doesn’t leave a ton left over for the wrestlers.

Looks like your point about 1 rich alumnus is true, if you look at the “annual support” chart, even NLWC was typically in the $500-$600k range annually, except for 2014  when it was nearly $6MM.

To know who is accumulating assets, the best measure is how much money is left after all operating expenses and necessary capital expenditures. That is the money that can be used to further expand (or not), recruit athletes, etc. As I've already explained, revenue is useless for that and even expenses don't give the full picture. My point was that an income statement or a balance sheet are not that meaningful without a cash flow statement to go along with them. I just didn't use those terms because what's the point, on a wrestling forum? This isn't Seeking Alpha or Sumzero....

Re: rich alumni, capital projects like RTCs are always going to be driven by big sponsors. See PSU, Cornell, Princeton, Beat the Streets, etc. etc. This is why I highlighted Columbia and NYCRTC as a possible major player (David Barry and friends). 

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4 hours ago, Cptafw164 said:

Army, Navy and Air Force have their own prep schools to get recruits up to speed academically and get extra training (FLWC is the same model but the academies did it first).  And Academy Prep school athletes are also open to recruiting since they are not enrolled. 

I did not know that about the service academies. Interesting and valuable contribution, thank you.

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1 hour ago, wrestlingnerd said:

To know who is accumulating assets, the best measure is how much money is left after all operating expenses and necessary capital expenditures. That is the money that can be used to further expand (or not), recruit athletes, etc. As I've already explained, revenue is useless for that and even expenses don't give the full picture. My point was that an income statement or a balance sheet are not that meaningful without a cash flow statement to go along with them. I just didn't use those terms because what's the point, on a wrestling forum? This isn't Seeking Alpha or Sumzero....

Re: rich alumni, capital projects like RTCs are always going to be driven by big sponsors. See PSU, Cornell, Princeton, Beat the Streets, etc. etc. This is why I highlighted Columbia and NYCRTC as a possible major player (David Barry and friends). 

What the NLWC financials linked previously provide is something which much more closely resembles a cash flow statement than an income statement. It provides everything you need to arrive at a cash flow or free cash flow number. 

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13 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Am I supposed to be impressed by those letters? No offense, but they're table stakes in finance. 

This is not an accounting forum. I simply said that while I agree with him at a high level, nothing on the Flo article referenced suggests only two RTCs are financially viable because net assets (a very balance sheet-focused snapshot view) are not necessarily indicative of which RTCs are financially viable. I suggested a better metric, which is unavailable, is free cash flow, since (as you should know) it is much more indicative of the trend that those net assets are likely to take. Saying "how much money is coming in and how quickly" in that context is not incorrect. Incomplete, perhaps, but again, what is the point of being complete with terminology used in finance on here? 

Yes my point was to impress you and I’m devastated it didn’t work. 

Your definition of free cash flow was “incomplete” because it was the definition of revenue. 

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8 minutes ago, MDogg said:

Yes my point was to impress you and I’m devastated it didn’t work. 

Your definition of free cash flow was “incomplete” because it was the definition of revenue. 

Spoken like a low level bean counter. Thanks for the valuable contribution to the thread, as off the mark as it was. You added so much to the discussion. 

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1 hour ago, wrestlingnerd said:

To know who is accumulating assets, the best measure is how much money is left after all operating expenses and necessary capital expenditures. That is the money that can be used to further expand (or not), recruit athletes, etc. As I've already explained, revenue is useless for that and even expenses don't give the full picture. My point was that an income statement or a balance sheet are not that meaningful without a cash flow statement to go along with them. I just didn't use those terms because what's the point, on a wrestling forum? This isn't Seeking Alpha or Sumzero....

Re: rich alumni, capital projects like RTCs are always going to be driven by big sponsors. See PSU, Cornell, Princeton, Beat the Streets, etc. etc. This is why I highlighted Columbia and NYCRTC as a possible major player (David Barry and friends). 

Why don’t you stop stating that you’re smarter than everyone and no one will understand and try to explain it to us?

I mean a quick google search on cash flow statements says most have 3 parts:  cash from operating activities, cash from investing activities, and cash from financing activities.  Unless I’m mistaken it seems at least most of the first 2 of those are included in the form 990 for NLWC.  

I get that revenue does not give the full picture, but it gives a decent bit of it right? If an RTC’s average annual revenue is $500k, how many wrestlers can really make a living wage from what’s left after other expenses?  (Note, that appeared to even be the ballpark for NLWC outside of a likely multi-million dollar donation)

 

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21 minutes ago, MDogg said:

What the NLWC financials linked previously provide is something which much more closely resembles a cash flow statement than an income statement. It provides everything you need to arrive at a cash flow or free cash flow number. 

Except it doesn’t. But go ahead and do it and tell us what it is. We’re dying to know.

The metric that was as referenced originally was not a particularly good one. That was the point. 

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1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

Why don’t you stop stating that you’re smarter than everyone and no one will understand and try to explain it to us?

I mean a quick google search on cash flow statements says most have 3 parts:  cash from operating activities, cash from investing activities, and cash from financing activities.  Unless I’m mistaken it seems at least most of the first 2 of those are included in the form 990 for NLWC.  

I get that revenue does not give the full picture, but it gives a decent bit of it right? If an RTC’s average annual revenue is $500k, how many wrestlers can really make a living wage from what’s left after other expenses?  (Note, that appeared to even be the ballpark for NLWC outside of a likely multi-million dollar donation)

 

I didn’t state I was smarter. Clarifying something you disagree with by mentioning something you know about in layman’s terms is not condescending. What Mdogg did is.

Revenue does not give even a decent picture of cash, sorry.

The Google definition of FCF is technically accurate but not that helpful in practice other than to a lowly bean counter because you need to calculate the specific component parts you pulled from Google. Generally, investors who assess a company’s cash trends focus on more readily and quickly available data, as I explained above. EBITDA - CX is generally a decent approximation and much more often used  in investing circles, and theirs is the relevant perspective when discussing which RTCs are likely to be competitive in the future as going concerns.

RTC funding is extremely lumpy. You absolutely cannot make a prediction worth anyone’s attention by looking at a single year’s tax filing. worth of incomplete financial statements.

If you take offense at any of the above, all stated matter of factly and not in the way you seem to have interpreted what I wrote, it is 100% exclusively your fault (don’t take that you literally....). 

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32 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Except it doesn’t. But go ahead and do it and tell us what it is. We’re dying to know.

The metric that was as referenced originally was not a particularly good one. That was the point. 

I agree with your general sentiment nerd, but in this case I think it's pretty easy to get a solid picture of each operation from their 990's.  RTC's generally don't have (or have very little) physical plant assets, and no liabilities.  They're not really set up to turn margins, and with the exception of a few exceptional lead gifts it's purpose-based fundraising and $1 in $1 out, for the most part.  

Most recent publicly available filings below for anyone that's interested:
Nittany Lion Wrestling Club: https://pdf.guidestar.org/PDF_Images/2017/251/408/2017-251408517-103dfd14-9.pdf
Hawkeye WC: https://pdf.guidestar.org/PDF_Images/2018/237/302/2018-237302974-0fa179a5-9.pdf
Ohio RTC: https://pdf.guidestar.org/PDF_Images/2017/061/778/2017-061778223-0fb262d1-9.pdf
Gopher WC: https://pdf.guidestar.org/PDF_Images/2018/410/003/2018-410003982-10ad0d08-9.pdf
Penn RTC: https://pdf.guidestar.org/PDF_Images/2017/471/577/2017-471577889-0fd2402e-9.pdf

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10 hours ago, Cptafw164 said:

Army:  2005 was a finalist (Phil Simpson).  Prior to that was 2001 (Mo Worthy). Prior to that was 1986 (Dennis Semmell).    1961 and 1962 was Army's only and last champ (Mike Natvig). 

Navy:  I don't care.

Air Force:  Kevin Hoy was a finalist (Lost to Mocco).  Don't think they ever had a champ. 

 

Navy has had two NCAA Champs.  Peter Blair in 1954 and 1955 and Dan Muthler in 1973.  More recently Mark Conley entered the 2002 as the 1 seed at 141 only to lose in the semifinal and slide to 6th.  Predergast was 3rd in 2008.  Overall Navy has by far had the most success of the 3 service academies.

Air Force last had a champ in 1967; Don Henderson.

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7 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I did not know that about the service academies. Interesting and valuable contribution, thank you.

I hope my part about "still open to recruiting" was not the pearl of wisdom you think is valuable.  Rutgers poacjed a top 10 guy from Army  prep several years back.  Rider did another a few years ago.  Both NJ wrestlers.

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31 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

Navy has had two NCAA Champs.  Peter Blair in 1954 and 1955 and Dan Muthler in 1973.  More recently Mark Conley entered the 2002 as the 1 seed at 141 only to lose in the semifinal and slide to 6th.  Predergast was 3rd in 2008.  Overall Navy has by far had the most success of the 3 service academies.

Air Force last had a champ in 1967; Don Henderson.

When was the last time NAVY had a three time all american?

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10 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

There was a time to make the, "military pays better than the private sector" argument (directly after the GFC), but now is not the time.  College grads are in high demand at the moment because of low unemployment.  Telling a prospective student athlete that he has required military service making 3K a month for 4 years with challenging work/life balance isn't enticing at all. However, there is no better place to go for people looking to serve in the military, and especially those who want to make a long term career in it.  It's not an insult to say that state and private colleges are better suited for those looking to work civilian jobs, while the academies are better suited for those looking to serve in the military..It's just reality-and a good thing because the point of the military academies is to train people looking to serve in the military. These universities serve a purpose far more important than NCAA wrestling, and for most top recruits, that's not what they are looking for.  

That is a fair assumption, but i would argue that someone starting out in corporate america right out of college doesn't have much of a work life balance because the promotions aren't linear like the Military.  you would be making 5K per month righht out of college (forgot to add TAX FREE housing allowance and sustinence allowance).  First promotion is 18 months, and the second promotion is 12 years after that.  You would be an Army, Marine or AF Captain (0-3) or Navy LT (O-3 like maverick).

Also, I would argue that the leadership you learn while at the acedemy AND in the military makes you a better manager once you transition to the civilian sector.  It is a concept called citizen soldiery.  The Canadians made this little segment talking about their officer Training Corps (Our ROTC) which looks at Canada, the US and the UK.  it is a good 5 minute watch.  The only problem is the Canadian network doesn't have a way for you to watch it (I contacted them to try and purchase a DVD, but they only had a transcript). 

It is very informative and gives some perspective:

Recovering our Honour:

     

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