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Marcus Cisero

Penn State / Navy vs. Ohio State / Stanford

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I watched both Penn State vs. Navy and Ohio State vs. Stanford via FLO, and the two events – in my opinion, could not have been any more different.

Penn State came out with an offensive strategy to win and to win BIG – even those who filled in for the injured (Pipher and Edsell) stepped up their game.  Ohio State on the other hand, well it was probably one of the most disappointed matches I’ve seen in a while. Quite boring comes to mind – sorry Buckeye fans but that’s my observation. 

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12 minutes ago, Marcus Cisero said:

I certainly agree but I'm referring to "going after it." 

I assume you think Nolf didn’t go after it vs Hidlay and Bo didn’t go after it for Gabe Dean then, right? 
  
the level of competition matters. Pletcher had 2 pins last week. Sasso killed everyone. 
  
come on man

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43 minutes ago, CoachWrestling said:

Stanford is much better than Navy. Like MUCH better. 

I would love to agree with you, because I am an Army grad, but Navy is actually better than Stanford: 

125:  Navy is heavily favored here without Townsell (Navy, Stanford) (3,0)

133:  Navy is ranked and heavily favored here.    (6,0)

141:  Ranked Woods will win, but no bonus. (6,3)

149:  Ranked Van der Merwve is favored, but if prince gets in the line-up, I would go with someone who has multiple wins over All-Americans (like a Major decision over a returning D1 All american before enrolling in the Naval Academy). Lets just go with NO PRINCE: (6,6)

157:  Toss up:  Wrestlestat has stanford winning by DEC (Wrestlestat determines toss-ups) (6,9)

165: Ranked Griffith and ranked Skidgel already wrestled.  Griffith won an exciting 2-0 match.  Griffith seems stymied by academy wrestlers winning 2-0 against Skidgel and 2-0, 1-0 against two Army Back-ups.  No Bonus Points.  (6,12)

174:  Carey is ranked and can bonus here, but lets settle for a decision. (9,12)

184:  Toss up:  Wrestlestat has Navy winning here. (12,12)

197:  Traxler is ranked, but Koser just wrestled Konel to a 4-3 loss.  I could say toss-up, but lets just go with traxler for the win.  (12,15)

HWT:  I will easily go with Birchmeier over an untested and unkown Showunmi.  Most likely bonus, but lets go with a decision and  a TIE 15-15

I would argue that Navy scores more overall match points and wins criteria.

 

 

 

Edited by Cptafw164

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57 minutes ago, Cptafw164 said:

I would love to agree with you, because I am an Army grad, but Navy is actually better than Stanford: 

125:  Navy is heavily favored here without Townsell (Navy, Stanford) (3,0)

133:  Navy is ranked and heavily favored here.    (6,0)

141:  Ranked Woods will win, but no bonus. (6,3)

149:  Ranked Van der Merwve is favored, but if prince gets in the line-up, I would go with someone who has multiple wins over All-Americans (like a Major decision over a returning D1 All american before enrolling in the Naval Academy). Lets just go with NO PRINCE: (6,6)

157:  Toss up:  Wrestlestat has stanford winning by DEC (Wrestlestat determines toss-ups) (6,9)

165: Ranked Griffith and ranked Skidgel already wrestled.  Griffith won an exciting 2-0 match.  Griffith seems stymied by academy wrestlers winning 2-0 against Skidgel and 2-0, 1-0 against two Army Back-ups.  No Bonus Points.  (6,12)

174:  Carey is ranked and can bonus here, but lets settle for a decision. (9,12)

184:  Toss up:  Wrestlestat has Navy winning here. (12,12)

197:  Traxler is ranked, but Koser just wrestled Konel to a 4-3 loss.  I could say toss-up, but lets just go with traxler for the win.  (12,15)

HWT:  I will easily go with Birchmeier over an untested and unkown Showunmi.  Most likely bonus, but lets go with a decision and  a TIE 15-15

I would argue that Navy scores more overall match points and wins criteria.

 

 

 

This isn’t really relevant. The claim wasn’t Stanford would beat Navy in a dual. 
  
look at the matchups. Stanford is strong in the areas that will give Ohio state challenges. Navy doesn’t match up like that with PSU. 
  
Im also unsure about the credibility of the original statement too. Who underperformed from Ohio State? 
  
125 - Malik looked as expected. 
133 - Kinner looked as expected. 
141 - Pletcher beat a dark horse title contender. This is exactly how Pletcher always wrestled the top guys. He beat Demas by 1 point too. 
149 - Sasso got the early takedown against a guy known for excellent defense. Sasso is also a freshman. I was concerned he might lose honestly.

157 - amazing performance. What a comeback. Clearly isn’t going to AA, but that was the best he has ever looked. 
 

165 - I think Stanford has a title contender here. I said that preseason and got some hate for it. Ethan Smith actually did better than expected. 
 

174 - Romero looked better than expected

184 - can’t believe his improvement. He was a no name before. 
197 - Moore killed Traxler. Traxler is very good and a likely AA. Moore totes with him

285 - not the starter

 

I really don’t understand the criticism. I’m usually a pessimist with this stuff, but I think Ohio state looked better overall than expected. 

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1 hour ago, Cptafw164 said:

I would love to agree with you, because I am an Army grad, but Navy is actually better than Stanford: 

125:  Navy is heavily favored here without Townsell (Navy, Stanford) (3,0)

133:  Navy is ranked and heavily favored here.    (6,0)

141:  Ranked Woods will win, but no bonus. (6,3)

149:  Ranked Van der Merwve is favored, but if prince gets in the line-up, I would go with someone who has multiple wins over All-Americans (like a Major decision over a returning D1 All american before enrolling in the Naval Academy). Lets just go with NO PRINCE: (6,6)

157:  Toss up:  Wrestlestat has stanford winning by DEC (Wrestlestat determines toss-ups) (6,9)

165: Ranked Griffith and ranked Skidgel already wrestled.  Griffith won an exciting 2-0 match.  Griffith seems stymied by academy wrestlers winning 2-0 against Skidgel and 2-0, 1-0 against two Army Back-ups.  No Bonus Points.  (6,12)

174:  Carey is ranked and can bonus here, but lets settle for a decision. (9,12)

184:  Toss up:  Wrestlestat has Navy winning here. (12,12)

197:  Traxler is ranked, but Koser just wrestled Konel to a 4-3 loss.  I could say toss-up, but lets just go with traxler for the win.  (12,15)

HWT:  I will easily go with Birchmeier over an untested and unkown Showunmi.  Most likely bonus, but lets go with a decision and  a TIE 15-15

I would argue that Navy scores more overall match points and wins criteria.

 

 

 

Probably also worth noting that if you give all the toss ups to Stanford, they beat Ohio State. 
125, 141, 157, 184, and 285 are all toss ups. Ohio State won all of them. 

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8 minutes ago, Housebuye said:

197 - Moore killed Traxler. Traxler is very good and a likely AA. Moore totes with him

 

 

Given the way he looked yesterday, some of which may be due to it being Kollin Moore, Traxler needs to up his game to AA. 

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8 minutes ago, Housebuye said:

Probably also worth noting that if you give all the toss ups to Stanford, they beat Ohio State. 
125, 141, 157, 184, and 285 are all toss ups. Ohio State won all of them. 

125 and 157 aren’t exactly toss ups when you have top 100 recruits wrestling people most fans never heard of I mean Heisleman has made like 4 world teams  and also at home opening a brand new area advantage OSU  lol and Stanford’s 184 was never a state finalist in high school and is wrestling as a true freshman 

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Speaking of Penn State. 

The Good

Overall effort was same as always. What you like to see. RBY had the major all sewn up if he rides out the last 20 seconds, but he cuts the guy loose and Byers says they are working on getting closing TD's. OK, let's see what happens next. RBY takes a shot and a scramble ensues and for sure I don't think he's going to score when he Winn Dixies the opponent to score with like 2 seconds remaining. You just have to give it up for that level of athletic ability and creativity. 

Navy trying to go upper body with Mark Hall. Ha ha. Big mistake. 

 

The Still Needs Work Dept

125 doesn't look like NCAA points right now, hopefully that changes. Conel's gas tank and finishing of shots. 

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

Speaking of Penn State. 

The Good

Overall effort was same as always. What you like to see. RBY had the major all sewn up if he rides out the last 20 seconds, but he cuts the guy loose and Byers says they are working on getting closing TD's. OK, let's see what happens next. RBY takes a shot and a scramble ensues and for sure I don't think he's going to score when he Winn Dixies the opponent to score with like 2 seconds remaining. You just have to give it up for that level of athletic ability and creativity. 

Navy trying to go upper body with Mark Hall. Ha ha. Big mistake. 

 

The Still Needs Work Dept

125 doesn't look like NCAA points right now, hopefully that changes. Conel's gas tank and finishing of shots. 

fair assessment. 
 

PSU has a very high floor. They will AA at 133, 141, 165, 174, and 285, likely with at least 3 finalists and 2 champs. That is the floor. Insane. Those 5 guys will likely score 80-100 points alone. 
  
157, 184 and 197 are fairly likely to AA too. That’s another 30ish. 
  
If PSU performs badly, I think they still score 120ish points. 
  
 

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11 minutes ago, WillieBoy said:

Interesting to see Penn State is already working on fine tuning rather than just wrestling into shape.

Planning and working on execution seems to be their game.

Can anyone on their schedule beat them this season - realistically?

Iowa matches up well in a dual 

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6 hours ago, Housebuye said:

 

fair assessment. 
 

PSU has a very high floor. They will AA at 133, 141, 165, 174, and 285, likely with at least 3 finalists and 2 champs. That is the floor. Insane. Those 5 guys will likely score 80-100 points alone. 
  
157, 184 and 197 are fairly likely to AA too. That’s another 30ish. 
  
If PSU performs badly, I think they still score 120ish points. 
  
 

I think 184 is pretty much a lock to AA .Shakur beat Venz last year with a torn ACL and then still almost placed at ncaas ,barring a major injury his floor is probably 6th 

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Cael is the best coach in the country.  It's obvious to all but the haters.  Bucks have a much less skilled lineup than last several years.  I thought the Bucks wrestled reasonably well given their lineup.  I also thought most of the Stanford wrestlers wrestled hard although they fell apart at 157 and Hvy due to conditioning issues.

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13 hours ago, Marcus Cisero said:

I watched both Penn State vs. Navy and Ohio State vs. Stanford via FLO, and the two events – in my opinion, could not have been any more different.

Penn State came out with an offensive strategy to win and to win BIG – even those who filled in for the injured (Pipher and Edsell) stepped up their game.  Ohio State on the other hand, well it was probably one of the most disappointed matches I’ve seen in a while. Quite boring comes to mind – sorry Buckeye fans but that’s my observation. 

Was at the match yesterday (walked over, live that close!) I understand and respect your opinion, but must disagree. If nothing else, everyone was excited to be in the Covelli Center for the first time--what a beautiful wrestling venue.

But more seriously, you're certainly not saying that Pletcher/Woods at 141 was boring!!! Great match! Sasso is always fun to watch (IMHO outside chance of winning it all). Cleary at 157 was an absolute thriller, the place just erupted. Griffin for Stanford at 165 was an eye-opener for me, he's the real deal. 184 was an even battle between two average college wrestlers, but fun to watch. Moore was his usual self against a good opponent, and who doesn't enjoy watching the #1 guy in action? HWT was an even battle between two below-average college wrestlers but once again, the arena just exploded. 125 was not the most exciting match of all time, I agree, but I always enjoy watching Heinselman.

Maybe it was one of those you-just-had-to-be-there things!  :-)

Edited by fightingsioux
addition

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10 hours ago, Housebuye said:

This isn’t really relevant. The claim wasn’t Stanford would beat Navy in a dual. 
  
look at the matchups. Stanford is strong in the areas that will give Ohio state challenges. Navy doesn’t match up like that with PSU. 
  

 

look at the comment I quoted.  It wasnt the OP, but someone who CLAIMED that "Stanford was much better than Navy...Like MUCH better."

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10 hours ago, Housebuye said:

Probably also worth noting that if you give all the toss ups to Stanford, they beat Ohio State. 
125, 141, 157, 184, and 285 are all toss ups. Ohio State won all of them. 

I gave one toss up to Stanford and the other one to Navy using wrestlestat as an arbitrator.  If you want to split hairs, then you have Stanford win 18-12, which is not "like MUCH better."  My theory still plays. 

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14 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

 

Given the way he looked yesterday, some of which may be due to it being Kollin Moore, Traxler needs to up his game to AA. 

Totally agree. He looks like he started smoking some of that california weed instead of training hard. 

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14 hours ago, Housebuye said:

This isn’t really relevant. The claim wasn’t Stanford would beat Navy in a dual. 
  
look at the matchups. Stanford is strong in the areas that will give Ohio state challenges. Navy doesn’t match up like that with PSU. 
  
Im also unsure about the credibility of the original statement too. Who underperformed from Ohio State? 
  
125 - Malik looked as expected. 
133 - Kinner looked as expected. 
141 - Pletcher beat a dark horse title contender. This is exactly how Pletcher always wrestled the top guys. He beat Demas by 1 point too. 
149 - Sasso got the early takedown against a guy known for excellent defense. Sasso is also a freshman. I was concerned he might lose honestly.

157 - amazing performance. What a comeback. Clearly isn’t going to AA, but that was the best he has ever looked. 
 

165 - I think Stanford has a title contender here. I said that preseason and got some hate for it. Ethan Smith actually did better than expected. 
 

174 - Romero looked better than expected

184 - can’t believe his improvement. He was a no name before. 
197 - Moore killed Traxler. Traxler is very good and a likely AA. Moore totes with him

285 - not the starter

 

I really don’t understand the criticism. I’m usually a pessimist with this stuff, but I think Ohio state looked better overall than expected. 

OP is not comparing performance against expectations; he is comparing attitude between two teams and one’s attitude to excel and the other attitude to survive.  

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