Bo Nickal vs. Gordon Ryan - Modified Grappling Rules

[treep2000 1,140]

1 minute ago, nhs67 said:

I'm rather stoked for it too, especially want to see how the size difference will play whichever way it plays.

Downey was clearly the better wrestler in a wrestling favored match Nicco... he was also much smaller. Now let's see Bo, who should also be much smaller, compete in a matchup that seems to favor the grappler over the wrestler as far as styles go.

Agreed fully.  I am stoked for this match, and will watch if it airs on Flograppling.  

Bo has a path to win, especially if it ends up being a takedown match.  

If at any point Bo is exposed or Gordy gets behind (since he can't pull guard), Bo is in MASSIVE trouble.  Also, Gordy on his back is going to be comfortable for him, unlike Bo.  Gordy will and can wriggle to his spot, and it's <insert thousands of holds/chokes> from half guard (which i assume will be allowed).  

[nhs67 2,061]

7 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

Agreed fully.  I am stoked for this match, and will watch if it airs on Flograppling.  

Bo has a path to win, especially if it ends up being a takedown match.  

If at any point Bo is exposed or Gordy gets behind (since he can't pull guard), Bo is in MASSIVE trouble.  Also, Gordy on his back is going to be comfortable for him, unlike Bo.  Gordy will and can wriggle to his spot, and it's <insert thousands of holds/chokes> from half guard (which i assume will be allowed).  

Despite the weight class of 218 Ryan has been all over in weight. He is jacked and listed at 6'2 but looks a bit shorter. I am very excited here the more I look in to it.

[CA_Wrestler 328]

Standard submissions, then don't expect Bo to last long unless he just sits in the guard or just tries to stand and stay neutral.  Doesn't matter how long Bo's been training BJJ.  He's been really active wrestling, so his BJJ hasn't been what it should be for this match.  If you win the ADCC Absolute division, like Gordon has as well as being a 2x ADCC world champion, then Bo's in for some major trouble.

 

Anybody else ever watch the PPV back in the day -BJJ vs wrestling called "The Contenders".  That's the show that was in Iowa, had Gable commentating, Tom Erickson won by decision, Hendo got submitted by Frank Shamrock with a heel hook, Townsend Saunders won by decision,  Van Arsdale won by decision, Dennis Hall lost by decision, Chris Barnes got armbarred by Carlos Newton, Kenny Monday got subbed by a toehold from Matt Hume.  If no leg submissions are allowed, then Bo will last a little longer.

[lu1979 565]

6 hours ago, AHamilton said:

Which is why it is illegal in folkstyle.  If he can get Bo's back, there will be serious trouble, probably sleepy time.  A smart Bo will just get takedowns and not fool around with other aspects of grappling.

It used to be legal back when I was wrestling (mid to late 70s) - it was a figure 4 to the body and it could be brutal - I am not sure when it was made illegal but it was harder to get out of than body scissors that are legal now (but were illegal back then strangely enough)

[Plasmodium 2,262]

I always thought figure 4s were illegal for stalling reasons.  interesting that scissors are illegal in free but figure 4 is not.

[grappler111 11]

Standard submissions, then don't expect Bo to last long unless he just sits in the guard or just tries to stand and stay neutral.  Doesn't matter how long Bo's been training BJJ.  He's been really active wrestling, so his BJJ hasn't been what it should be for this match.  If you win the ADCC Absolute division, like Gordon has as well as being a 2x ADCC world champion, then Bo's in for some major trouble.

 

Anybody else ever watch the PPV back in the day -BJJ vs wrestling called "The Contenders".  That's the show that was in Iowa, had Gable commentating, Tom Erickson won by decision, Hendo got submitted by Frank Shamrock with a heel hook, Townsend Saunders won by decision,  Van Arsdale won by decision, Dennis Hall lost by decision, Chris Barnes got armbarred by Carlos Newton, Kenny Monday got subbed by a toehold from Matt Hume.  If no leg submissions are allowed, then Bo will last a little longer.

Hume Is a Pankration athlete and Shamrock has catch as catch can wrestling background. They are not bjj bb.

The best ruleset is UWW Nogi Grappling style in my opinion. -2 point for the guard and point for takedowns, throws and ground positions.

 

The main trouble for Bo is called roids. The ground grappler has a big advantage...

 

[manyak 184]

Gordan Ryan is going to win this easily. That isn't a knock on wrestling, but they are totally different sports. Bo is tougher, more athletic, a more special athlete, and likely will be a better MMA fighter than Gordon Ryan. However, he will still lose fairly quickly and it won't be close unless Ryan wants it to be.

[CA_Wrestler 328]

5 hours ago, grappler111 said:

Hume Is a Pankration athlete and Shamrock has catch as catch can wrestling background. They are not bjj bb.

The best ruleset is UWW Nogi Grappling style in my opinion. -2 point for the guard and point for takedowns, throws and ground positions.

 

The main trouble for Bo is called roids. The ground grappler has a big advantage...

 

You're trying to pretend like Hume and Shamrock didn't practice BJJ....

[AHamilton 1,026]

11 hours ago, CA_Wrestler said:

Standard submissions, then don't expect Bo to last long unless he just sits in the guard or just tries to stand and stay neutral.  Doesn't matter how long Bo's been training BJJ.  He's been really active wrestling, so his BJJ hasn't been what it should be for this match.  If you win the ADCC Absolute division, like Gordon has as well as being a 2x ADCC world champion, then Bo's in for some major trouble.

 

Anybody else ever watch the PPV back in the day -BJJ vs wrestling called "The Contenders".  That's the show that was in Iowa, had Gable commentating, Tom Erickson won by decision, Hendo got submitted by Frank Shamrock with a heel hook, Townsend Saunders won by decision,  Van Arsdale won by decision, Dennis Hall lost by decision, Chris Barnes got armbarred by Carlos Newton, Kenny Monday got subbed by a toehold from Matt Hume.  If no leg submissions are allowed, then Bo will last a little longer.

Remember Monday going for a pro wrestling "Boston Crab" and just feeding his leg to Hume?  That didn't work out so well for him.

I feel that wrestlers would be more prepared for avoiding such foolishness today.  However, from a spectator's perspective, no gi BJJ has really grown too.

It is funny, but if you look at former high school wrestler and no-gi expert Eddie Bravo's 10th Planet BJJ system, a number of the submissions are just high school wrestling holds modified a little for BJJ.  The "twister" comes to mind.

[CA_Wrestler 328]

11 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

Remember Monday going for a pro wrestling "Boston Crab" and just feeding his leg to Hume?  That didn't work out so well for him.

I feel that wrestlers would be more prepared for avoiding such foolishness today.  However, from a spectator's perspective, no gi BJJ has really grown too.

It is funny, but if you look at former high school wrestler and no-gi expert Eddie Bravo's 10th Planet BJJ system, a number of the submissions are just high school wrestling holds modified a little for BJJ.  The "twister" comes to mind.

Yeah, I dunno why Monday did that.  Just really inexperienced in those positions.   It was like "Here's my leg, please submit me".

 

Yep, No GI BJJ  has grown exponentially compared to back in the early 90s.  Everything used to be gi only, then ADCC came around and really made no gi grappling explode.  Especially because Americans started to compete and win like Kerr, Ricco Rodriguez, Tito, etc.

[grappler111 11]

You're trying to pretend like Hume and Shamrock didn't practice BJJ....

They are not bjj athletes. Their styles and background are Pankration and Catch Wrestling.

[grappler111 11]

Yeah, I dunno why Monday did that.  Just really inexperienced in those positions.   It was like "Here's my leg, please submit me".  

Yep, No GI BJJ  has grown exponentially compared to back in the early 90s.  Everything used to be gi only, then ADCC came around and really made no gi grappling explode.  Especially because Americans started to compete and win like Kerr, Ricco Rodriguez, Tito, etc.

 

Today, Nogi Grappling isn't bjj but a recognized style under United World Wrestling and it is very popular in Russia and many other ex Urss countries. The guard without stand up grappling is -2 points so the philosophy is very different. 

 

 

[CA_Wrestler 328]

1 hour ago, grappler111 said:

They are not bjj athletes. Their styles and background are Pankration and Catch Wrestling.

So just because that's what they're categorized as, they didn't practice BJJ? 

St. Pierre must not have practiced wresting since his background is Karate then.

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by CA_Wrestler

[Plasmodium 2,262]

1 hour ago, CA_Wrestler said:

So just because that's what they're categorized as, they didn't practice BJJ? 

St. Pierre must not have practiced wresting since his background is Karate then.

 

'Practice' is easy.  Competing against accomplished practitioners of a sport is much harder.  St. Pierre practiced wrestling and he would get annihilated in a wrestling match.

[treep2000 1,140]

25 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

'Practice' is easy.  Competing against accomplished practitioners of a sport is much harder.  St. Pierre practiced wrestling and he would get annihilated in a wrestling match.

Rumor has it that his wrestling was good enough to be Team Canada worthy.  Saw that on a different thread and is unverified.

[CA_Wrestler 328]

1 hour ago, Plasmodium said:

'Practice' is easy.  Competing against accomplished practitioners of a sport is much harder.  St. Pierre practiced wrestling and he would get annihilated in a wrestling match.

So, you mean Bo is going to get annihilated as well?

 

Just flew over your head 10000%.  What I'm referring to is that grappler111 was saying that the 2 guys I referenced earlier- Frank Shamrock and Matt Hume didn't practice BJJ and incorporate it into their submission grappling just because they are "Pankration" and "Catch Wrestling".   St. Pierre was the best MMA wrestler even though he lists "Karate" as his background when he was dominating the UFC in the WW division.  Those are facts and I'm not talking about a wrestling match.  We're talking about a submission grappling match here.

[Plasmodium 2,262]

52 minutes ago, CA_Wrestler said:

So, you mean Bo is going to get annihilated as well?

 

Just flew over your head 10000%.  What I'm referring to is that grappler111 was saying that the 2 guys I referenced earlier- Frank Shamrock and Matt Hume didn't practice BJJ and incorporate it into their submission grappling just because they are "Pankration" and "Catch Wrestling".   St. Pierre was the best MMA wrestler even though he lists "Karate" as his background when he was dominating the UFC in the WW division.  Those are facts and I'm not talking about a wrestling match.  We're talking about a submission grappling match here.

My apologies. I misread the whole thing.

[wrestlingphish 1,029]

Downey now claiming it was supposed to be him vs Ryan but USA Wrestling misled him about a trip to Russia.

[Mokoma 326]

16 hours ago, manyak said:

Gordan Ryan is going to win this easily. That isn't a knock on wrestling, but they are totally different sports. Bo is tougher, more athletic, a more special athlete, and likely will be a better MMA fighter than Gordon Ryan. However, he will still lose fairly quickly and it won't be close unless Ryan wants it to be.

I suspect just the opposite.

[AHamilton 1,026]

Bo will likely lose badly.  However, in the interest of fairness, Ryan is eager to do a takedown match with Bo after the 2020 Olympic process has unfolded.

[grappler111 11]

GSP has a solid wrestling training and the level is a lot higher than Shamrock or Hume bjj practice.

[Axe_Spartan 205]

I'm a guy who started following MMA and BJJ/submission grappling way before going to the wrestling route, and knowing Gordon Ryan since his first breakthrough performance in EBI, replacing an injured star and teammate, Garry Tonon, I'm pretty sure Bo won't survive 15 minutes with Gordon there.

If leg locks were allowed, it wouldn't even be 1 minute.

Pull guard won't be allowed, but I think Gordon can do what every other BJJ fighter did on ADCC, shoot on the legs, failing and pulling the guy to his guard. The only chance of Bo surviving is to run like Schaub did against Cyborg on a submission grappling match back in the day.

[Housebuye 2,438]

I follow no gi grappling closely

Gordon Ryan is a technician. He isn’t the fastest or smoothest guy out there, but he taps our basically everyone. His takedowns are pretty bad, but he is good at catching wrestlers as they transition during takedowns. 
  
If Bo plays a jui jitsu game with him, he will get subbed in less than a minute. Bo however is 10x better on the feet. Like Bo can toy with him there. 
  
the most likely outcome is Ryan via sub, but if Bo has actually been training jui jitsu he may be able to avoid positions where Gordon can sub him. It would make for a very boring match with a few cool takedowns, but it is possible. 
  
Gordon is also generally 205-220 and doesn’t have much fat on him, but I don’t think it will matter. Bo is probably functionally stronger. 
  
Gordon also has bruised ribs at the moment, so his movement as explosiveness will be limited. That could play into the match, especially considering Bo can toss Ryan on his head at will. 

I’m actually pretty excited for it. The smart pick is Ryan by sub, but Bo has the skill set to win if he uses the right gameplan. He probably won’t though because it will make for a boring match. 
  
props to both guys for giving it a shot. 

[Housebuye 2,438]

On 11/19/2019 at 7:04 PM, treep2000 said:

Agreed fully.  I am stoked for this match, and will watch if it airs on Flograppling.  

Bo has a path to win, especially if it ends up being a takedown match.  

If at any point Bo is exposed or Gordy gets behind (since he can't pull guard), Bo is in MASSIVE trouble.  Also, Gordy on his back is going to be comfortable for him, unlike Bo.  Gordy will and can wriggle to his spot, and it's <insert thousands of holds/chokes> from half guard (which i assume will be allowed).  

Gordon not being able to pull guard won’t matter. He will shoot a bad single and pull guard from there. He just won’t butt scoot. 
  
I agree though. If Bo engages in guard or half guard for more than a couple seconds, Ryan will sub him. 

[Housebuye 2,438]

On 11/19/2019 at 11:08 AM, AHamilton said:

If leg locks are legal, Bo could be joining DT in ACL rehab.

They aren’t legal and Gordon said he doesn’t want to hurt Bo. He said he will transition to a choke if Bo is not tapping to something that can do damage. 
  
If Gordon is in a position to get the tap, he can transition to a choke in most cases, so I believe him. Bo isn’t escaping any bjj positions with Gordon. Bo has to avoid those positions to win