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Bo Nickal vs. Gordon Ryan - Modified Grappling Rules

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On 11/19/2019 at 1:18 PM, AHamilton said:

If submissions are allowed, Bo could be in some trouble.  However, reportedly Gordon will not be allowed to use his most dangerous submissions.  If Bo wrestles him, he could have a good chance.  If he actually tries to grapple with him, it will be trouble

Ryan is 99kg (198) but also won ADCC absolute this year (no weight limit).


 

I don’t think people realize how good Ryan’s game is outside of leg locks. He is also really good there, but the core of his game is control and back takes. Leg locks remove some of his weapons, but it’s not like Gordon will have trouble subbing Bo if Bo engages in the ground. 

Edited by Housebuye

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On 11/19/2019 at 1:50 PM, Mokoma said:

I've watched a few videos now and I just don't get it.

What do you want to know?

Gordon isn’t a flashy grappler. As he was coming up, other high level guys talked a lot of **** about his game because he isn’t particularly fast and doesn’t do the fun moves. He mostly takes everyone’s back and methodically finds a way to choke them. He is just really damn good at it and people don’t realize until it is too late

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On 11/19/2019 at 3:32 PM, grappler111 said:

Is Ryan in roid cycle?

 

Anti doping is a big factor...

Lol everyone in bjj roids. Wrestling it seems a bit less common, but I promise you some of the guys who make world teams have done or still do steroids. It is more of an issue in bjj 

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On 11/19/2019 at 3:40 PM, AHamilton said:

Which is why it is illegal in folkstyle.  If he can get Bo's back, there will be serious trouble, probably sleepy time.  A smart Bo will just get takedowns and not fool around with other aspects of grappling.

 Ryan is probably the best in the world at finishing chokes from the back. If he gets Bo’s back it is all over. Bo doesn’t know how to defend a world class black belt from choking him - this is a highly technical position. 
  
Bo (and Nolf for that matter) would be world class no gi jui jitsu guys in just a couple of years of training, but there is just no way Bo can properly defend an RNC. He will try to power out of it and get subbed if they end up there. 

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On 11/19/2019 at 3:51 PM, wrestlingnerd said:

These modified rules will probably end up producing an incredibly boring match. If you take away a BJJ guys' guard, WTF is he supposed to do against an elite wrestler? I get that he could get into the guard after getting taken down, but Nickal is going to ankle pick the dude to death and then immediately get back up to his feet. 

Gordon will shoot and pull guard when stuffed. Or at least that’s his plan im sure if Bo won’t engage on the ground. 
  
I agree though. This might be a very boring match

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On 11/19/2019 at 6:54 PM, treep2000 said:

oh... i ain't made.  not mad at all... 

Was just pointing out that hitting J'Den's hips made of titanium is a different animal than Gordy acting like an anaconda and absolutely crushing your diaphragm so much that you have no other worldly choice but to spazz or go beddy-bye.  At ADCC, he was destroying and handling Black Belt/Red Belt masters.  Unless Bo is at least a Purple, I honestly cannot see how he is going to be able to compete if it goes to the ground.  

Also, humor is sometimes lost, especially when humor is dry, when in print.  There's no vocal tones, no body language... etc.  

So... I'm just as Chillaxed as you... all good.  

I currently train Gi/No-Gi, so it's cool to see all this playing out as of the past few years. 

Gordon has never competed against a red belt. They are all like 90 (not literally 90...but they are way too old to compete at adcc)

you are right in that Bo has no chance if he tries to play a technical jui jitsu game with Ryan, but I have to assume he knows that

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On 11/19/2019 at 8:31 PM, CA_Wrestler said:

Standard submissions, then don't expect Bo to last long unless he just sits in the guard or just tries to stand and stay neutral.  Doesn't matter how long Bo's been training BJJ.  He's been really active wrestling, so his BJJ hasn't been what it should be for this match.  If you win the ADCC Absolute division, like Gordon has as well as being a 2x ADCC world champion, then Bo's in for some major trouble.

 

Anybody else ever watch the PPV back in the day -BJJ vs wrestling called "The Contenders".  That's the show that was in Iowa, had Gable commentating, Tom Erickson won by decision, Hendo got submitted by Frank Shamrock with a heel hook, Townsend Saunders won by decision,  Van Arsdale won by decision, Dennis Hall lost by decision, Chris Barnes got armbarred by Carlos Newton, Kenny Monday got subbed by a toehold from Matt Hume.  If no leg submissions are allowed, then Bo will last a little longer.

He’ll yeah I watched this! Matt Hume is a dangerous man

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12 hours ago, AHamilton said:

Bo will likely lose badly.  However, in the interest of fairness, Ryan is eager to do a takedown match with Bo after the 2020 Olympic process has unfolded.

in all seriousness, I don’t really want to see this. Gordon is not good at wrestling. Bo would pin Ryan as fast as he would pin me...literally within 10 seconds if he felt like it. A wrestling match between the two is not something Ryan would ever agree to. 
 

ive spoken with Gordon about it. He used to think he was a good wrestler and would be a great one if he worked on it more. He started training a bit more with good wrestlers and how says in ADCC rulesets he can get takedowns on wrestlers (they aren’t the same as wrestling takedowns, so while he would never hit one on Bo, bo may not hit one on him either in the adcc ruleset). Not really relevant for this match but it is interesting. 
  
also Gordon has done a few training sessions with Mocco recently and got absolutely smashed. He posted about it publicly and gave Mocco a ton of praise, saying he has a lot to learn from wrestlers

He has also rolled around with Pat Downey a few times recently and trains with Nick Rodriguez daily. He thought Nick was a good wrestler until the Downey match...

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I know nothing of jiu-jitsu, but here are the rule modifications:

"The match will have modified 3rd Coast Grappling rules, which means the match will be fifteen minutes long. There will be no leg locks, no guard pulling, and no tech fall at 11 points. The competitor who submits their opponent or has more points at the end of the time limit will win. "

So, what is a takedown? It seems Nickal can simply take him down, extract himself, rinse and repeat.  Que no?  Nickal will win in this scenario. 

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18 minutes ago, Housebuye said:

in all seriousness, I don’t really want to see this. Gordon is not good at wrestling. Bo would pin Ryan as fast as he would pin me...literally within 10 seconds if he felt like it. A wrestling match between the two is not something Ryan would ever agree to. 
 

ive spoken with Gordon about it. He used to think he was a good wrestler and would be a great one if he worked on it more. He started training a bit more with good wrestlers and how says in ADCC rulesets he can get takedowns on wrestlers (they aren’t the same as wrestling takedowns, so while he would never hit one on Bo, bo may not hit one on him either in the adcc ruleset). Not really relevant for this match but it is interesting. 
  
also Gordon has done a few training sessions with Mocco recently and got absolutely smashed. He posted about it publicly and gave Mocco a ton of praise, saying he has a lot to learn from wrestlers

He has also rolled around with Pat Downey a few times recently and trains with Nick Rodriguez daily. He thought Nick was a good wrestler until the Downey match...

Danaher posted on Instagram that Ryan agreed to a takedown match in the future. Prob similar rules to Downey/Rodriguez.

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Just now, AHamilton said:

Danaher posted on Instagram that Ryan agreed to a takedown match in the future. Prob similar rules to Downey/Rodriguez.

Yeah I know. It’s not going to happen. He will never agree to the Downey/Rodriguez rules. He watched that match and he gets his ass kicked in the feet by Rodriguez. 
 

He might do it with adcc takedown rules, but that completely changes it. 

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1 hour ago, Plasmodium said:

I know nothing of jiu-jitsu, but here are the rule modifications:

"The match will have modified 3rd Coast Grappling rules, which means the match will be fifteen minutes long. There will be no leg locks, no guard pulling, and no tech fall at 11 points. The competitor who submits their opponent or has more points at the end of the time limit will win. "

So, what is a takedown? It seems Nickal can simply take him down, extract himself, rinse and repeat.  Que no?  Nickal will win in this scenario. 

For both gi and no-gi matches, IBJJF rules (https://ibjjf.com/rules/) will be implemented (...)

Takedown (2 points)

- When one of the athletes, starting the movement with 2 feet on the ground, causes the opponent to land on his/ her back, sideways or seated, establishing top position for 3 (three) seconds.

- When an athlete forces his/her opponent to the ground on all fours or belly-down, points shall only be awarded once the athlete performing the takedown controls the opponent’s back without the requirement of placing hooks and keeping at least one of the opponent’s knees on the ground for 3 (three) seconds.

 

Well, Bo will have to take Gordon down and avoid Gordon sticking to him for 3 seconds.

 

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This not going to go well for Bo. Bo will be able to take him down, but one he does Ryan will close his guard so that Bo can’t get up. Then, one of two things happens: 1. he submits him from his guard via multiple avenues 2. Ryan tries to sweep him and Bo gives up his back instead of conceding the sweep(the problem a wrestler has when transitioning to Bjj/MMA). Then he gets submitted via multiple avenues.

I am biased toward wrestling. I am a former wrestler, and coached for 9 years. I had 3 amateur MMA matches and. During my 1 year of MMA and 2 years of Bjj I still had trouble when we were “rolling”.

If this were an MMA fight then I then I would give Bo a 50/50 chance. But this guy is too good. ADCC is like the Olympics for BJJ. Bo is not Olympic/World championship material in wrestling yet. Hopefully he knows when to tap should it be a submission that is not a choke. Whoever put this together is a moron.

Watch Chael Sonnen vs Andre Galvao to see how this will likely go.

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This not going to go well for Bo. Bo will be able to take him down, but one he does Ryan will close his guard so that Bo can’t get up. Then, one of two things happens: 1. he submits him from his guard via multiple avenues 2. Ryan tries to sweep him and Bo gives up his back instead of conceding the sweep(the problem a wrestler has when transitioning to Bjj/MMA). Then he gets submitted via multiple avenues.

I am biased toward wrestling. I am a former wrestler, and coached for 9 years. I had 3 amateur MMA matches and. During my 1 year of MMA and 2 years of Bjj I still had trouble when we were “rolling”.

If this were an MMA fight then I then I would give Bo a 50/50 chance. But this guy is too good. ADCC is like the Olympics for BJJ. Bo is not Olympic/World championship material in wrestling yet. Hopefully he knows when to tap should it be a submission that is not a choke. Whoever put this together is a moron.

Watch Chael Sonnen vs Andre Galvao to see how this will likely go.
Bo Is better than Sonnen.

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As a few have stated, Ryan won't have to pull guard, he just needs to get taken down. Get a takedown, give up a takedown, you end up in the same spot, on the ground.

Once on the ground, Bo will have to use a lot of compensating explosive movements and raw strength to either escape or avoid sweeps and submission attempts. His real downfall will probably be the length of the match as that compensation will eventually tax his cardio while Ryan will not have to exert himself.

It is a freak show match, but I'm still interested.

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21 hours ago, Housebuye said:

What do you want to know?

Gordon isn’t a flashy grappler. As he was coming up, other high level guys talked a lot of **** about his game because he isn’t particularly fast and doesn’t do the fun moves. He mostly takes everyone’s back and methodically finds a way to choke them. He is just really damn good at it and people don’t realize until it is too late

I just honestly don't understand how Bo won't destroy this guy.  Is he not allowed to use wrestling moves?

 

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51 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

I just honestly don't understand how Bo won't destroy this guy.  Is he not allowed to use wrestling moves?

 

One of the two: Either you are trolling or you don't know nothing about submission grappling and it's showing your ignorance here. Go search for Gordon, try to learn and educate yourself in the sport as a whole, then draw a conclusion. 

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5 hours ago, Mokoma said:

I just honestly don't understand how Bo won't destroy this guy.  Is he not allowed to use wrestling moves?

 

Bo will get wrestling takedowns easily and at will. Bo has to basically sit in Ryan‘a guard for 3 seconds for a takedown to count for points though. Ryan is exceptionally good in that position. 3 seconds is a long time for him to get enough control so that Bo can’t just stand up. This is the main reason why Bo is a heavy underdog - a wrestling takedown is only part of what you need to do to score. 
  
Bo theoretically has a path to victory, but he has no chance of submitting Ryan so he has to last the entire 15 minutes and be winning on points. 
  
If Bo really wants to win and doesn’t care if it is exciting, he can just evade for 14 minutes and then hit an easy takedown and try to not get subbed. I highly doubt he does that. 
 

Bo can take Ryan down at will though. If slams are allowed, Ryan could be in trouble. 

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