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Bo Nickal vs. Gordon Ryan - Modified Grappling Rules

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On 11/21/2019 at 6:16 AM, Housebuye said:

I’d like to apologize for posting 30 times in a row. I got excited. 

in any other sport my mind says "A guy coming from any other sport can't compete with a top guy" So thats my initial inclination here. 
But......


For whatever, reason..... maybe it's from me with my limited wrestling abilities and 0 Jits/Judo experience rolling with brown belts and not having success in "Tapping them" but not being tapped myself, coupled with Bo's obviously elite wrestling talents and knowledge of grappling....  I think he has a chance at making a show of it. 


But then guys like you (who understand it) basically say "no way" and..... I gotta go with your expertise.  I appreciate the spamming of comments

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50 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

in any other sport my mind says "A guy coming from any other sport can't compete with a top guy" So thats my initial inclination here. 
But......


For whatever, reason..... maybe it's from me with my limited wrestling abilities and 0 Jits/Judo experience rolling with brown belts and not having success in "Tapping them" but not being tapped myself, coupled with Bo's obviously elite wrestling talents and knowledge of grappling....  I think he has a chance at making a show of it. 


But then guys like you (who understand it) basically say "no way" and..... I gotta go with your expertise.  I appreciate the spamming of comments

Yeah... this isn't just a black belt.  It is the best no gi practitioner in the world... likely by a long shot.

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1 minute ago, AHamilton said:

Yeah... this isn't just a black belt.  It is the best no gi practitioner in the world... likely by a long shot.

Oh I am sure he is great, I've just never been around the greatness level, so knowing how easily transferable the skill-set is, my heart says "How exciting, potential upset" 
My head says: "Don't be silly" 

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1 hour ago, Housebuye said:

Bo will get wrestling takedowns easily and at will. Bo has to basically sit in Ryan‘a guard for 3 seconds for a takedown to count for points though. Ryan is exceptionally good in that position. 3 seconds is a long time for him to get enough control so that Bo can’t just stand up. This is the main reason why Bo is a heavy underdog - a wrestling takedown is only part of what you need to do to score. 
  
Bo theoretically has a path to victory, but he has no chance of submitting Ryan so he has to last the entire 15 minutes and be winning on points. 
  
If Bo really wants to win and doesn’t care if it is exciting, he can just evade for 14 minutes and then hit an easy takedown and try to not get subbed. I highly doubt he does that. 
 

Bo can take Ryan down at will though. If slams are allowed, Ryan could be in trouble. 

I think Bo will be able to escape the ground attacks for a while, simply because it is No Gi. But a 15 minute match is a long time and he can't do it forever.

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1 hour ago, spladle08 said:

Oh I am sure he is great, I've just never been around the greatness level, so knowing how easily transferable the skill-set is, my heart says "How exciting, potential upset" 
My head says: "Don't be silly" 

Go to YouTube and search for Askren Marcelo. There’s not a better pure wrestler for going to the ground with a grappler than Askren, and maybe ever. Marcelo is smaller than Askren but a BJJ legend. See what happens. 

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42 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Go to YouTube and search for Askren Marcelo. There’s not a better pure wrestler for going to the ground with a grappler than Askren, and maybe ever. Marcelo is smaller than Askren but a BJJ legend. See what happens. 

To be fair, that was very early in Ben's BJJ training.  But that's the same position Bo will be in here.

For people that think Bo has a shot I think the point is that he can avoid the ground altogether.  In a 15 minute match that seems highly unlikely, though. 

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Here's how this is gonna go... 

Minute #1:  Takedown Bo, Takedown Bo, Takedown Bo

Minute #2:  Takedown Bo, Takedown Bo

Minute #3:  Takedown Bo, Takedown Bo

Minute #4:  Takedown Bo

Minute #5:  Takedown Bo... oops, Gordon gets out and to Bo's back for a funky reversal... body triangle locked in place by Gordon... rear naked choke applied... Bo Taps...

This will be the gist:

th?id=OIP.SpVmps8byt2D55oY0mbK5QHaC1&pid=Api&P=0&w=440&h=169

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47 minutes ago, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

To be fair, that was very early in Ben's BJJ training.  But that's the same position Bo will be in here.

For people that think Bo has a shot I think the point is that he can avoid the ground altogether.  In a 15 minute match that seems highly unlikely, though. 

That's precisely why I posted it. Pure wrestler vs. pure grappler, both high-level. On the ground, it's not even a contest, even if the wrestler is one of the best on the mat ever. Just like from the feet, it would be very easy work the other way.

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6 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

That's precisely why I posted it. Pure wrestler vs. pure grappler, both high-level. On the ground, it's not even a contest, even if the wrestler is one of the best on the mat ever. Just like from the feet, it would be very easy work the other way.

Right--I only meant that later in Ben's career that roll might have looked different, but the comparison to Bo vs. Ryan is a good one.  

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5 hours ago, spladle08 said:

in any other sport my mind says "A guy coming from any other sport can't compete with a top guy" So thats my initial inclination here. 
But......


For whatever, reason..... maybe it's from me with my limited wrestling abilities and 0 Jits/Judo experience rolling with brown belts and not having success in "Tapping them" but not being tapped myself, coupled with Bo's obviously elite wrestling talents and knowledge of grappling....  I think he has a chance at making a show of it. 


But then guys like you (who understand it) basically say "no way" and..... I gotta go with your expertise.  I appreciate the spamming of comments

Yeah don’t put too much stock in bjj belts. 
  
put it this way - college wrestlers represent the top 2% of all wrestlers in the US. They are probably the equivalent of a black belt and that designation is never lost. Sure, they are all good, but a random D2 guy who is now in his 40s would still be a black belt, as would Bo Nickal. Obviously they are on completely different levels. Bo would pin them just like he would pin me - with zero effort. 
 
This isn’t a perfect comparison, but I think you get the point. I’ve rolled with black belts I can control, and I have gotten tapped by guys who have been training subs for a year...belt doesn’t mean all that much in terms of competitive abilities. 
  
there are levels to this. Gordon is out there tapping other world champions out. 
 

what’s interesting is Bo has a clear advantage in one area and won’t engage like a traditional bjj guy on the ground. The thing is, Gordon Ryan trains with some solid D1 AA types fairly often. He knows he won’t be able to touch Bo on the feet. He also knows wrestler tendencies and how to exploit that, seeing as his biggest weakness is his takedown game. 

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3 hours ago, grappler111 said:

Slams and violent throws are not allowed in bjj. Only in Freestyle and Greco roman wrestling.

 

 

This isn’t a bjj match. In some no gi events slams are allowed for brown and black belts. Plus this has modified rules. 

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3 hours ago, Ching said:

I think Bo will be able to escape the ground attacks for a while, simply because it is No Gi. But a 15 minute match is a long time and he can't do it forever.

Yeah maybe. If he tried to engage in the ground for more than a few seconds, Ryan will start his back transition stuff and tap Bo out though. It largely depends on how disciplined Bo will be

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4 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Go to YouTube and search for Askren Marcelo. There’s not a better pure wrestler for going to the ground with a grappler than Askren, and maybe ever. Marcelo is smaller than Askren but a BJJ legend. See what happens. 

Never really followed jj, but wow, Marcelo is super slick. Love the way he gracefully changes direction on a hold and turns it into a killer submission. Also, looked like Askren was play grappling with Marcelo and learning moves. Couldn't tell how much effort Ben was really fighting there.

So seeing all that, then the Maia fight, gotta give credit to Ben for taking Maia down and going right in there after him. Turns out Maia was real slick too. 

Just checked out a few videos of Ryan Gordan. More shark infested waters on the ground. Oh my.       :D

 

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Marcelo Garcia is often considered the Michael Jordan of BJJ. He is a prodigy and well-known for handling all comers of all sizes. He's kind of like John Smith is for wrestling. When you meet him, he looks like an average dude, not an athlete of any kind, maybe a golfer or a HS PE teacher.

I can assure you that with no serious BJJ training under his belt, the amount of effort Askren was expending in that video would not have mattered. The result would've been exactly the same.

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Bo Is better than Sonnen.


Well he’s been doing Bjj a lot longer than Bo at a professional level. Has a nasty arm triangle. As much as he plays the part of someone who hates BJJ he actually does a lot of it. Bo has only been doing it part time for a very short amount of time.

There is a YouTube video of Cael Doing BJJ with Wanderlie Silva. Cael could not even pass his guard.

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Maybe this will help some the people who have never done MMA, BJJ, Etc. Kevin Jackson (better than Bo Nickal, being an Olympic champ and all) got submitted by Frank Shamrock(great grappler, but not on Gordon Ryan’s level) in 16 seconds.

Hey I’m team wrestling and would love to see Bo win, but it would be a VERY big upset. People are making a big deal about the -2 points. He could just pull guard anyways to get Bo into his world.

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Maybe this will help some the people who have never done MMA, BJJ, Etc. Kevin Jackson (better than Bo Nickal, being an Olympic champ and all) got submitted by Frank Shamrock(great grappler, but not on Gordon Ryan’s level) in 16 seconds.

Hey I’m team wrestling and would love to see Bo win, but it would be a VERY big upset. People are making a big deal about the -2 points. He could just pull guard anyways to get Bo into his world.
I have Greco roman, Freestyle, Pankration/mma and grappling base so I know very well.
Shamrock has wrestling background with many years of grappling training so he is a terrible match for a pure wrestler with a style based on leg attacks. There are also other fights.
Olympian Avto Gogolishvili took blackbelt Jorge Santiago to a draw. Melchor Manibusan took bronze at an early ADCC giving Royler Gracie a tough match in the process. Olympian Talgat Ilyasov won an invitational in Abu Dhabi after mere months of dabbling.

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I have Greco roman, Freestyle, Pankration/mma and grappling base so I know very well.
Shamrock has wrestling background with many years of grappling training so he is a terrible match for a pure wrestler with a style based on leg attacks. There are also other fights.
Olympian Avto Gogolishvili took blackbelt Jorge Santiago to a draw. Melchor Manibusan took bronze at an early ADCC giving Royler Gracie a tough match in the process. Olympian Talgat Ilyasov won an invitational in Abu Dhabi after mere months of dabbling.


As do I. Wrestled Folk, freestyle, and Greco. Then transitioned into MMA where obviously I did BJJ, Thai, and continued wrestling. I’m not trying to make this a D*** measuring contest lol. Just saying stepped into ring and cage a few times, while training full time.

So are you saying that an Olympic Gold medalist could not have thrown Shamrock? He has a wrestling background but is nowhere near world/Olympic material. Jackson didn’t shoot a double leg in fight at first. He tied up with him so that point is mute. And it’s still the same result anyways. Whether Bo throws him or shoots for the legs, it still ends up on the ground

Yeah but that was when the rules for Abu Dhabi very different. Those guys that do well at such as Mark Kerr, are the exception not the rule. The rules they are under are very different from the early days of Abu Dhabi.

Honestly I think his best path to win will be to take him down, which will no problem, and sit in his guard the entire match. If this were MMA and striking was legal Bo would have a much better chance. But with these rules I highly doubt it. 15 minutes is a long time to stay in a world class guard and not make one tiny mistake. I’m sure you know this all too well from your white belt days, while making the transition to MMA when you roll live during BJJ days.

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On 11/22/2019 at 10:15 AM, spladle08 said:

Oh I am sure he is great, I've just never been around the greatness level, so knowing how easily transferable the skill-set is, my heart says "How exciting, potential upset" 
My head says: "Don't be silly" 

Follow your head

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1 hour ago, Billyhoyle said:

How many points do you get for a spladle in grappling? I’ll take Bo Nickal by technical fall. I just don’t think this other guy is as good of an athlete as Bo, seeing as I’ve never heard of him and his sport isn’t part of the Olympics. 

Neither is 15 aside rugby and you put an elite NFL linebacker out there and he'll get his ass handed to him

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As someone with college wrestling and a judo black belt I have found (unfortunately) takedowns don't give a huge advantage in grappling. Which is why many very good grapplers don't worry about take downs and just pull guard.

It is also much harder to take someone down when there are not the same stalling rules. Especially in the gi.

Finally, the ground game changes hugely with the submission option (obviously), but also when your opponent does not care about being pinned our giving up back points

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