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Bo Nickal vs. Gordon Ryan - Modified Grappling Rules

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2 hours ago, AnklePicker said:

That’s what I thought too until I saw a local guy around my parts Nick Rodriguez nearly win the ADCC with only a year of training. Please explain. 

All you have to do is look where Nick trained 2-3 times a day.  At Renzo's.  Where did Bo do any real hardcore submission grappling training? compared to a guy like Nick?  There are always going to be guys that are an anomaly, like Nick.  The thing is, Nick wasn't competing for the World team spot(like Bo) or had a legit shot at making the USA Wrestling senior world team.  Some ex-wrestlers just take to submission grappling/BJJ much better than others because being on your back(and being comortable) and positioning in wrestling compared to submission grappling is the complete opposite.

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3 hours ago, CA_Wrestler said:

 

That's because it's not a wrestling match or an MMA match.  It's called a submission grappling match for a reason.

Only ignorant people would think Bo would have won even though any leg submissions weren't allowed.  If Bo were training submission grappling full time for years instead of wrestling then he might have had a shot, but the wrestling crowd has no idea how good you have to be to win the ADCC World Championships.

That's like submission grappling fans disregarding Bo's wrestling accomplishments and thinking Gordon would beat Bo in folk or free.  Just not going to happen.

This is partially true. I agree that Bo had next to no chance to win this event. Even more laughable is anyone who thought Bo had a chance of landing a submission (looking at you Mokoma). That said, don’t compare ADCC accomplishments to that of high level wrestling. To say the competition in Bjj and no-go grappling is considerably less than in wrestling would be an understatement. There are many examples of guys with limited submission experience winning at the highest levels in these sports. I wouldn’t be surprised if in 1-2 years Bo was able to place at ADCC. 

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46 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

I thought Bo represented well also.  His suplex was fun... His ability to handfight kept it competitive.  In this form of grappling though...  As soon as Gordon grabs you and closes the distance, it's game over.  He (Gordon) is the Pinnacle of the sport, and seemed to have a good time going about it.  In a pure wrestling match, Bo will destroy him easily.  In a pure no gi ADCC or IBJJF ruleset march, Gordon wins this in the first few minutes, if not faster.  Kudos to both for putting on this show and helping make both complementary sports more accessible and exciting.  

My professor (BJJ Black Belt) at my school made a great analogy.  Think of each sports objective as "opening a door".  In wrestling, you run right through the door.  In BJJ, you walk up to the door, turn the handle, open the door, shut the door behind you, and finish the sequence by locking the door.  The analogy, in my opinion, is spot on!

Wrestling fans thinking that Bo actually forced Gordon into the position for that suplex when Gordon was clearly trying to initiate contact(donkey guard) to transition for a submission.

Gordon specializes in leglocks and if they had those, Bo would have been done way faster.  That's like them both agreeing to do a folkstyle match and Bo couldn't attack the legs and only had to go upper body.  Bo would win handily, but not as quick as he would be full folk rules.

All wrestlers should just give props to Bo for stepping up and stop whining so much like butthurt crybabies.  I've seen at least one  poster from here/Hawkeye board whining on Flo's twitter.

Dumbest statement about a SUBMISSION GRAPPLING match.

"But, but, but...put a wrestling ref in there and see what happens!"

If Gordon and Bo do a freestyle or folk match, then all of the wrestling fans will rejoice when Bo techs, ragdolls or pins him because that's what'll happen.

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Just now, AZ_wrestling said:

This is partially true. I agree that Bo had next to no chance to win this event. Even more laughable is anyone who thought Bo had a chance of landing a submission (looking at you Mokoma). That said, don’t compare ADCC accomplishments to that of high level wrestling. To say the competition in Bjj and no-go grappling is considerably less than in wrestling would be an understatement. There are many examples of guys with limited submission experience winning at the highest levels in these sports. I wouldn’t be surprised if in 1-2 years Bo was able to place at ADCC. 

He definitely would be able to medal at ADCC if training full-time and being more comfortable/understanding positions with more limited experience.  Just look at Mark Kerr(although massively juiced on roids) Tito, Matt Hughes and all of the wrestlers who competed at ADCC when it first started.  The main thing is getting takedowns that transition into submission attempts or possible threats.  Not just throwing a guy for points or getting a takedown for points.

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26 minutes ago, CA_Wrestler said:

He definitely would be able to medal at ADCC if training full-time and being more comfortable/understanding positions with more limited experience.  Just look at Mark Kerr(although massively juiced on roids) Tito, Matt Hughes and all of the wrestlers who competed at ADCC when it first started.  The main thing is getting takedowns that transition into submission attempts or possible threats.  Not just throwing a guy for points or getting a takedown for points.

Athletes are athletes, regardless of sports.  Wrestling and BJJ have such a close relationship, that it's definitely correct to think that a world level wrestler would do well in BJJ.  However, I argue that if you took a teenage BJJ phenom and had him or her train wrestling for 2 years, then the same could be said for them as well.  

Also, I wouldnt slam BJJ guys so quickly... It's just a different style and there are plenty of BAMF's out there that could tap a macho wrestler in a heartbeat.  

In all this, we should be embracing the similarities and exploring the differences in both arts.  Both are fantastic.  Both are fun.  Both have a special place in my life.

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Now no-gi Grappling isn't a simply ruleset but a recognized style of wrestling under UWW. Russia has a national training center for Grappling and it is under the russian wrestling federation control.

Remember that ancient wrestling was a submission style and catch wrestling (the style of Sakuraba, the "Gracie Hunter") is the grandfather of Freestyle wrestling. Brazilian Luta Livre is another example of wrestling style with submission.

 

 

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1 hour ago, treep2000 said:

Athletes are athletes, regardless of sports.  Wrestling and BJJ have such a close relationship, that it's definitely correct to think that a world level wrestler would do well in BJJ.  However, I argue that if you took a teenage BJJ phenom and had him or her train wrestling for 2 years, then the same could be said for them as well.  

Also, I wouldnt slam BJJ guys so quickly... It's just a different style and there are plenty of BAMF's out there that could tap a macho wrestler in a heartbeat.  

In all this, we should be embracing the similarities and exploring the differences in both arts.  Both are fantastic.  Both are fun.  Both have a special place in my life.

Absolutely not. And it’s hard to imagine how anyone who is closely involved in wrestling would think this. A Bjj phenom with two years of training in wrestling isn’t winning ****. The difference in the level of competition between these sports is enormous. A world gold medal in wrestling is 10x the accomplishment as a world gold in Bjj.
 

 

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1 minute ago, AZ_wrestling said:

Absolutely not. And it’s hard to imagine how anyone who is closely involved in wrestling would think this. A Bjj phenom with two years of training in wrestling isn’t winning ****. The difference in the level of competition between these sports is enormous. A world gold medal in wrestling is 10x the accomplishment as a world gold in Bjj.
 

 

This...

Wrong on so many levels with little factual evidence to back it up.  

It's like saying that winning gold in competitive pistol is less than winning gold in archery.  They are related disciplines, and you see crossover, but neither is "10x the accomplishment". 

You sound foolish, and I'm sorry to see this manifest in your post.

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4 minutes ago, AZ_wrestling said:

Absolutely not. And it’s hard to imagine how anyone who is closely involved in wrestling would think this. A Bjj phenom with two years of training in wrestling isn’t winning ****. The difference in the level of competition between these sports is enormous. A world gold medal in wrestling is 10x the accomplishment as a world gold in Bjj.
 

 

Kinda like how a phenom gymnast can't be a phenom wrestler (Echemendia anyone?).

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12 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

This...

Wrong on so many levels with little factual evidence to back it up.  

It's like saying that winning gold in competitive pistol is less than winning gold in archery.  They are related disciplines, and you see crossover, but neither is "10x the accomplishment". 

You sound foolish, and I'm sorry to see this manifest in your post.

Different sports have different levels of competition. I don’t know why that concept is so hard for you to grasp. Wrestling, on a global scale, has significantly more athletes and coaches. If I invented a grappling art tomorrow that had crossover with wrestling and I won a backyard tournament, would you say that accomplishment is equal to the highest in freestyle wrestling? I mean they’re related but separate disciplines, right?

Edited by AZ_wrestling

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Different sports have different levels of competition. I don’t know why that concept is so hard for you to grasp. Wrestling, on a global scale, has significantly more athletes and coaches. If I invented a grappling art tomorrow that had crossover with wrestling and I won a backyard tournament, would you say that accomplishment is equal to the highest in freestyle wrestling? I mean they’re related but separate disciplines, right?
An Olympic sport is deeper than a non Olympic sport in the same class. Totally agree.

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In this match the ruleset forced the fight on the ground for non stalling so this is an artificial approach. In UWW grappling ruleset if you are not able to taking down your opponent 9 of 10 you lose the match. This is the correct approach in my opinion.

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2 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Is someone arguing that ADCC or  other BJJ competition is on level with the Olympics or FS Worlds?

Yes. Treep seems to think that because wrestlers have had success in ADCC with limited experience, the opposite would hold true if submission guys wanted make the jump to wrestling. Hilarious really. 

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13 hours ago, grappler111 said:

2-2 until 2 minutes at the end vs the best submission grappler in the world. And this is the proof about the ineffectiveness of bjj without wrestling.

You could not be more wrong, if leg locks/heel hooks were allowed, Bo would have been finished under a minute or two, did you see those 3 scissor takedows Gordon hit on him? One would be enough to Gordon destroys Bo's knee. It wouldn't be close.

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1 hour ago, grappler111 said:

In this match the ruleset forced the fight on the ground for non stalling so this is an artificial approach. In UWW grappling ruleset if you are not able to taking down your opponent 9 of 10 you lose the match. This is the correct approach in my opinion.

The most complete approach is to allow heel hooks (in this case I understand that they did not do it because of Bo's Olympic dream approach), which is not how UWW grappling events and IBJJF work.

Edited by Axe_Spartan

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So looking ahead, sounds like Bo will eventually fight in mma. Wonder if Bo will train with Gordon to enhance his jj skills? How long would it take Bo to pick up some of those killer skills? Now looking back, I'm wondering if Nolf's Winn Dixie move came from the jj playbook? 

Never knew about Gordon Ryan til this thread popped up and since, have been watching a lot of Gordon's videos. This guy is a monster, and a very smooth one to boot.

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5 hours ago, AZ_wrestling said:

Yes. Treep seems to think that because wrestlers have had success in ADCC with limited experience, the opposite would hold true if submission guys wanted make the jump to wrestling. Hilarious really. 

Lol... OMG... You are so right!  How could I have been such a fool to have a differing opinion than you?  How could I be so naive after all these decades?  Oh golly Miss Molly...

I DO believe that if you put Gordon Ryan in PSU's room for a year, training folk or free 100%, he would be competitive.  Champ?  Maybe not.  Competitive with the top tier?  Yes...  I think he could be.

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1 hour ago, treep2000 said:

Lol... OMG... You are so right!  How could I have been such a fool to have a differing opinion than you?  How could I be so naive after all these decades?  Oh golly Miss Molly...

I DO believe that if you put Gordon Ryan in PSU's room for a year, training folk or free 100%, he would be competitive.  Champ?  Maybe not.  Competitive with the top tier?  Yes...  I think he could be.

Maybe a good room guy, but USADA would ban him and you’d never see him compete

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The most complete approach is to allow heel hooks (in this case I understand that they did not do it because of Bo's Olympic dream approach), which is not how UWW grappling events and IBJJF work.


The UWW Grappling and ibjjf nogi ruleset are very different in strategy and point system. In UWW Grappling the jump in the guard is penalized and throws have more points.
The two federation banning heel hooks because they are not professional events and the risk of injury is high.
Former Russian freestyle wrestlers kicked in the ass a lot of bjj bb under Grappling ruleset.

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10 hours ago, treep2000 said:

Lol... OMG... You are so right!  How could I have been such a fool to have a differing opinion than you?  How could I be so naive after all these decades?  Oh golly Miss Molly...

I DO believe that if you put Gordon Ryan in PSU's room for a year, training folk or free 100%, he would be competitive.  Champ?  Maybe not.  Competitive with the top tier?  Yes...  I think he could be.

Did Ryan ever wrestle?  Maybe you could make the argument for him; but it seems like a lot of the Grappling guys did wrestle and many were not even D1 caliber, such as Rodriguez.  How much better is Ryan than Rodriguez?

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5 hours ago, grappler111 said:


 

 


The UWW Grappling and ibjjf nogi ruleset are very different in strategy and point system. In UWW Grappling the jump in the guard is penalized and throws have more points.
The two federation banning heel hooks because they are not professional events and the risk of injury is high.
Former Russian freestyle wrestlers kicked in the ass a lot of bjj bb under Grappling ruleset.

 

Name the former russian freestyle wrestlers who kicked bjj bb ass.

The UWW grappling level is so low compared to IBJJF No Gi and especially ADCC that bjj black belts like Anthony Guy de Oliveira and John Hansen, who are good but nothing compared to the top guys on grappling, were world champions this year. When a real top grappler goes and signed up, that happens:

"The big story of the weekend besides the Russian domination would be the individual performance of Joao Miyao at 62kg. The lone Brazilian entered in the gi and no-gi divisions, only conceding points from pulling guard in his matches. Miyao won by triangle, putting Akhmed Iasaev of Russia to sleep in the no-gi final." 

 

And this is the proof about the ineffectiveness of bjj without wrestling.

And this is still untrue, like I said, if heel hooks are allowed, pure wrestlers are not lasting longer than 2 minutes normally.

 

 
Edited by Axe_Spartan

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