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Changing college to freestyle

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For me it was easier to control the pace, speed and flow of freestyle/Greco. 
And I hated riding!
Ive coach a lot of little kids how to folkstyle. From scratch but I always had more experienced folkstyle kids in the room to point to.
Ive tried to teach the same groups freestyle and greco (none had ever done it) and it was a struggle, I think I leaned on competition a lot more for "learning" there... so in my limited experience, I enjoyed coaching folk more also but i wondered what level you were coaching at... youth, highschool, college, men.

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i do love people whining about free using made up "facts" then being too ignorant to even understand what is being explained to them... that type of meat head mentality is perfect for folk...

ride time is awful... mat wrestling can be incredibly dull to have to sit through... and the "escape" point can artificially keep a wrestler in a match while also being dominated...

with all that being said, i could very easily live with all of it if they just instituted a a step out point in folk... there is nothing worse than backing up constantly and running out of bounds for safety... make them learn how to wrestle from an early age and all this ride time crap will be inconsequential...

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i do love people whining about free using made up "facts" then being too ignorant to even understand what is being explained to them... that type of meat head mentality is perfect for folk...

ride time is awful... mat wrestling can be incredibly dull to have to sit through... and the "escape" point can artificially keep a wrestler in a match while also being dominated...

with all that being said, i could very easily live with all of it if they just instituted a a step out point in folk... there is nothing worse than backing up constantly and running out of bounds for safety... make them learn how to wrestle from an early age and all this ride time crap will be inconsequential...

Yep the out if bounds safety-net is brutally under addressed.

I think a step out point would be widely accepted with 0 negatives.

People who hate the idea will say itll promote people only looking for underhooks or 2 on 1s to pushouts but if you are being controlled that easily maybe you're not that good.

 

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2 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

Yep the out if bounds safety-net is brutally under addressed.
I think a step out point would be widely accepted with 0 negatives.
People who hate the idea will say itll promote people only looking for underhooks or 2 on 1s to pushouts but if you are being controlled that wasily maybe you're not that good.

those same people always love to make the dull and unimaginative "sumo" claim... yet fail to address that it never happens in the real styles...

again, typical meat head/folk mentality

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5 minutes ago, LJB said:

those same people always love to make the dull and unimaginative "sumo" claim... yet fail to address that it never happens in the real styles...

again, typical meat head/folk mentality

I think you have a decent point. But let’s not pretend like the 65 kg finals at the bill Ferrell didn’t have a sumo wrestling feel the entire 2nd period. Molinaro could only score by running JO out of bounds. He had absolutely no chance to score on leg attacks. So yes, it did happen very recently in a “real style”.

Now what the better argument would be is: most wrestlers wouldn’t participate in this type of style. It would be more confined to heavyweights pushing each other around. But that would at least create more action in the big boy weight class as certain heavys can tend to struggle to get in on leg attacks. Also coming in here calling folk style fans “meat heads” generally isn’t going to get you very far in constructive conversations about how to improve the sport. 

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4 minutes ago, goheels1812 said:

I think you have a decent point. But let’s not pretend like the 65 kg finals at the bill Ferrell didn’t have a sumo wrestling feel the entire 2nd period. Molinaro could only score by running JO out of bounds. He had absolutely no chance to score on leg attacks. So yes, it did happen very recently in a “real style”.

Now what the better argument would be is: most wrestlers wouldn’t participate in this type of style. It would be more confined to heavyweights pushing each other around. But that would at least create more action in the big boy weight class as certain heavys can tend to struggle to get in on leg attacks. Also coming in here calling folk style fans “meat heads” generally isn’t going to get you very far in constructive conversations about how to improve the sport. 

sumo feel?

that is just seeing what you want to see and not the reality...

it was a wrestling match... molinaro not being athletic enough to finish on JO is just a reality... both wrestlers gave up step out points... they were penalized for going outside the field of play which incentivises them not to do that... JO could afford to give step outs because he could actually finish shots... hardly sumo...

i didnt call all folk fans meat heads... i called the meat head mentality perfect for folk... there is a subtle difference that if one cannot comprehend might point towards them being a meathead... and i could not possibly care less one way or the other... this is just a forum and as such is as big a cess pool as any other... no improvement of the sport will ever come from this place... thinking these mewl fests will have any affect other than to amuse some and antagonize others is nothing more than grandiose delusions and naivete'...

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21 minutes ago, LJB said:

sumo feel?

that is just seeing what you want to see and not the reality...

it was a wrestling match... molinaro not being athletic enough to finish on JO is just a reality... both wrestlers gave up step out points... they were penalized for going outside the field of play which incentivises them not to do that... JO could afford to give step outs because he could actually finish shots... hardly sumo...

i didnt call all folk fans meat heads... i called the meat head mentality perfect for folk... there is a subtle difference that if one cannot comprehend might point towards them being a meathead... and i could not possibly care less one way or the other... this is just a forum and as such is as big a cess pool as any other... no improvement of the sport will ever come from this place... thinking these mewl fests will have any affect other than to amuse some and antagonize others is nothing more than grandiose delusions and naivete'...

Dude Molinaro scores 6 points and all 6 were step outs. That is literally sumo wrestling. You can say he didn’t finish leg attacks and that’s fine, but giving him points for running someone out of bounds over and over is how sumo wrestlers score points..... And I don’t even think freestyle is sumo wrestling at all. But if someone new to wrestling watched that match that’s exactly what they would think. It’s hilarious you said earlier people were being stubborn because they are given facts about freestyle and refuse to accept them, but here we are with you refusing to see how molinaro wrestles a sumo style after I give you facts. 

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2 hours ago, JasonBryant said:


Let me spell this out for you, so you don't misinterpret the stats again. Because instead of answering with any facts to back up a rationale, you merely deflected.

There were 144 matches that were decisions that ended in a shutout. Meaning they were the 4-0, 5-0 type of match, which are plenty common in folkstyle wrestling.
Of those 144 matches, NOT ONE SINGLE BOUT ENDED 1-0. Not one.

So you bemoaned freestyle and refused to watch because of the 1-0 stallfests, yet not a single 1-0 match happened over 1,000 matches at the World Championships.

Now to refute your other point, because "that" isn't the case, nor were the 10-0 blowouts.

FACTS, good sir.

DQ's by Caution: 3
Pins: 104
Forfeits: 3
Injury Defaults: 9
VPO (Decision where one wrestler doesn't score): 144
VPO1 (Decisions where both wrestlers score): 475
VSU0 (Tech falls that are of the 10-0 type): 174
VSU1 (Techs were both wrestlers score): 90

I get why people don't like freestyle, but why just make up things as a justification? What you've said isn't true. Prior to 2013, when the rules were sh*t, that's a different story.

"make things up"? You don't know what matches I've watched, do you? Do you think I sit around all day watching a halfsport like FS? Also THIS is what you stated: " 144 were decisions that lacked points (VPO, aka shutouts)", but conspicuously I see no "0-0" scores in your last. Hmmmm. Do you know what the word "lack" means? 

Edited by TobusRex

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1 hour ago, spladle08 said:

Ive coach a lot of little kids how to folkstyle. From scratch but I always had more experienced folkstyle kids in the room to point to.
Ive tried to teach the same groups freestyle and greco (none had ever done it) and it was a struggle, I think I leaned on competition a lot more for "learning" there... so in my limited experience, I enjoyed coaching folk more also but i wondered what level you were coaching at... youth, highschool, college, men.

Well I can certainly understand how it's so hard to coach FS....let's see we have the neutral position, common to Folk and FS. Minus the mat work. Yup, I can see how that would be a terrible adjustment: not having to teach kids the rest of the skills. Are you kidding? 

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11 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

Well I can certainly understand how it's so hard to coach FS....let's see we have the neutral position, common to Folk and FS. Minus the mat work. Yup, I can see how that would be a terrible adjustment: not having to teach kids the rest of the skills. Are you kidding? 

teaching par terre offense and defense is more difficult than you'd think (ie the matches where you see guys get "rolled across the mat with no control").
It's hard to keep your kid from getting teched by these kids who dont "have control" when they have never wrestled freestyle and they're 8 years old and not realizing that 1 second turn was worth 2pts each time. 
It's also hard to teach a scrambly kid not to expose his back and all that stuff. 
Super hard to teach a condescending poster how hard it is for younger kids who are new to wrestling to grasp an alternate style theyve never competed in when theyve just not got a handle on the first one. 

Edited by spladle08

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23 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

"make things up"? You don't know what matches I've watched, do you? Do you think I sit around all day watching a halfsport like FS? Also THIS is what you stated: " 144 were decisions that lacked points (VPO, aka shutouts)", but conspicuously I see no "0-0" scores in your last. Hmmmm. Do you know what the word "lack" means? 

I wholly and mightily shot down your claim of 1-0 stallfests by using the results from the 2019 World Championships. There wasn't a single 1-0 bout. If you want to try to argue that I said something I didn't to try to back yourself out of the erroneous and false assertion there were "1-0 stallfests," by all means, go die on that hill, because I dare to say everyone understood the point I was making. I even explained it by stating 4-0, 5-0. I know what the word "lack" means. I provided context. I also didn't make a personal attack. Your opinion is based an incorrect assertion. That's not a personal attack, btw.  

I showed there were ZERO 1-0 matches. I was pretty sure that decision that lacked points with the description of the win type to indicate those are the 144 bouts that ended X-0 that weren't tech falls.

Fine, you didn't watch the 2019 World Championships, and you pointed to the 2018 Worlds with Snyder getting decked as the last freestyle match you watched. Ok. How many 1-0 matches occurred at that tournament? NONE! So there hasn't been a 1-0 match in the last two years at the world championships in over 1900 matches.

So no, I clearly don't know what matches you watched, because if you saw a 1-0 match, you weren't watching freestyle wrestling. I don't doubt they've happened, but they haven't happened at the last two World Championships.

By the way, there were 6 1-0 matches at the D1 championships in the last two years, with four of them last year. If there's ever a 1-0 stallfest, it's in folkstyle.

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16 minutes ago, goheels1812 said:

Dude Molinaro scores 6 points and all 6 were step outs. That is literally sumo wrestling. You can say he didn’t finish leg attacks and that’s fine, but giving him points for running someone out of bounds over and over is how sumo wrestlers score points..... And I don’t even think freestyle is sumo wrestling at all. But if someone new to wrestling watched that match that’s exactly what they would think. It’s hilarious you said earlier people were being stubborn because they are given facts about freestyle and refuse to accept them, but here we are with you refusing to see how molinaro wrestles a sumo style after I give you facts. 

not just refuse to accept them, too ignorant to even understand them... again subtle differences that you fail to see... this is a pattern you have repeated over and over in just a few posts... clearly, you only see what you want to see... it is not a very learned approach to life... it could very easily be seen as a meat head proclivity...

molinaro is not athletic enough to take JO down... he would have done the exact same thing in a folk match but would not have earned any points... that match would have been infinitely more boring because JO would not have had to remain active as he could have just backed up with no penalty... 

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3 minutes ago, LJB said:

not just refuse to accept them, too ignorant to even understand them... again subtle differences that you fail to see... this is a pattern you have repeated over and over in just a few posts... clearly, you only see what you want to see... it is not a very learned approach to life... it could very easily be seen as a meat head proclivity...

molinaro is not athletic enough to take JO down... he would have done the exact same thing in a folk match but would not have earned any points... that match would have been infinitely more boring because JO would not have had to remain active as he could have just backed up with no penalty... 

We can just agree to disagree. The irony in your posts is astounding. You say I’m only seeing what I want to, yet you won’t consider my point of view as being relevant and worth your while. That is not a very learned approach to life. It could very easily be seen as meat head proclivity. 
 

Have a nice rest of your evening :)

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8 minutes ago, JasonBryant said:

By the way, there were 6 1-0 matches at the D1 championships in the last two years, with four of them last year. If there's ever a 1-0 stallfest, it's in folkstyle.

Factual and actual. 
Hard to win this argument @TobusRex
It's also hella crazy you don't understand the "Shutout" only applies to 1 wrestler. 
The other wrestler does score, not BOTH GO SCORELESS. 
Maybe you're just trolling, but crazy. 

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3 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

Factual and actual. 
Hard to win this argument @TobusRex
It's also hella crazy you don't understand the "Shutout" only applies to 1 wrestler. 
The other wrestler does score, not BOTH GO SCORELESS. 
Maybe you're just trolling, but crazy. 

he is not trolling... he really is just that guy... proved it many times over...

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Just now, Boompa said:

Want to kill NCAA wrestling?  Introduce freestyle.

NCAA as in Folk? Or do you think the Universities would stop supporting their athletes, and kids would start turning down free education, if the style more closely aligned with their World and Olympic dreams?

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8 hours ago, JasonBryant said:

Riding time sucks.

I like riding time over a guy getting a takedown and then not even attempting a turn in Freestyle and waiting for a referee to put them back on their feet.  I like all styles, but the more I watch or coach matches where no one including the coaches, wrestlers, and referees no what the outcome should be, the more I like the structure of folkstyle.

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I would stay with Folk and here are some of my reasons...

*   Folkstyle rule changes/adaptations are made via the NCAA Coaches Committee...these guys know wrestling pretty well (I don't recall who is currently on the committee) and although I don't agree with all of them, at least it's fairly consistent from year to year.

*  The international rules are set by the Officials (not coaches).

*  Think of all the rule changes in international wrestling over the past couple decades...2 minute periods with no accumulated scoring, the infamous ball grab, single leg position after after tied period, forced body lock after tied periods, one day tournaments with single elimination or virtually no wrestle backs, no sense even wrestling for third place as we need to get these damn matches over with, good grief I could go on and on.  If these guys were in charge of my marketing department and responsible for filling the seats, i would have fired them multiple times over.  

*  Contrast any international tournament, even the Olympics and world championships,  to the DI NCAA wrestling championships.  The DI's are a much better fan experience.  Some of the reasons for this is the brackets are easy to understand, the tournament is spread over three days and fans can go the bars with their friends/family and talk about the great matches and the anticipation of great matches to come.  The Big Tens are similar.  These are fun times.

*  If we move to international rules, we will be beholden to the international officials (yikes) and their opinions.  No more input from the field.

*  International wrestling has three officials for each mat?  What a joke and waste of travel expenses.

*  International matches have a lot of subjectivity to the scoring (who tilted who?, no sure but better get the three officials together to discuss) 

*  The international officials are constantly blowing the whistle and stopping the matches.  Oftentimes they are even scolding the wrestlers which gives a tone of disrespect.

*  Is Folkstyle perfect?  Probably not, but at least it's uniquely ours.

 

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The concept of it, I'm fine with. What it means now, in execution, has become a painful point in our sport. How many matches in recent memory are 3-2 decided by 1:04 of riding time where it's grab ankle until a four count, drive opponent down to the mat, rinse, repeat. As I have stated several times on this forum, there are consequences for being inept or unskilled.  When one can demonstrate dominance, control, and mastery, he deserves a reward...be it riding time, an escape point, back points, or a takedown.  Escaping from bottom is hard especially if the top man understands the physics of balance, torques, and action/reaction.  Bottom techniques are labor intensive and difficult, so I completely understand why folks like freestyle. It eliminates the difficult to teach and learn, top and bottom.  And why shouldn't the top man be rewarded with a point for his ability to control?  It's very hard to put a decent wrestler on his back, especially the way the rules are set up now...bottom man doesn't have to do much.  I read the same gloomy descriptions as yours.. "grab ankle until a four count, drive opponent down to the mat, rinse, repeat."  Who's fault is that?  Trust me on this...It is grueling for the top man to control a bottom man who doesn't want to be there....Maybe it's just me, but I was taught on bottom the techniques to prevent my ankles from being controlled or taught how to counter ankle control.  I think it is incredibly unfair for someone to exhibit control, dominance,  and mastery, and get nothing for it.  Like high school.  The bottom guy gets a point for escaping, whether being let go or earning it...and the top guy gets '0' for the 1:58 he controlled him...  

I think it sucks in its current format. I believe it should be kept and only scored if a viable nearfall attempt has been scored. We have stalling rules aimed at reducing "riding" yet we still have something called "riding time." I didn't grow up in wrestling from a young age. I discovered it in my teens after being an avid and rabid fan of all sports. It's one less nuance as well. When I went to the Virginia Duals and saw the second clock, it confused me. Without fail, I have to explain riding time to every single high school fan under the age of 50 who looks over to watch college wrestling. It's been my personal experience that it's another unnecessary nuance that slows matches down, creates controversial scenarios with ankle riding, added rules to combat it and ultimately, serves as what exactly? I'm not sure how difficult the riding time clock is to understand.  It's either red or green and the accumulated riding time is in one of those colors.  As far as my experience with explaining wrestling rules to newbies, that one is relatively simple.  I'm trying to understand how RT slows matches down...as far as ankle riding...I will reiterate: learning the techniques to prevent or counter those skills solves a lot of problems for the bottom man.  I will agree that we have way too many rules and that is what is difficult for me to explain to people trying to appreciate the sport.  I think the plethora of rules resulted from the lack of knowledge and skill sets that have gradually gone by the wayside, especially on top and bottom. We have a general societal mentality that when one is superior, something must be implemented to level the field.  We can't have Valedictorians. We must penalize wealthy people.  If you are good at controlling the bottom man, you shouldn't be rewarded, you must be penalized/not rewarded and we have to do something for the bottom man for parity (instead of the bottom man doing the work and learning the methods to free himself). 

 Some time of weird tiebreaker? With all the attacks on freestyle and its criteria, we decide a winner based on seconds of riding time when athletes go into the tiebreakers. In many sports, races are won by 1/100ths and 1/1000ths of a second.  Touchdowns/first downs are made on fractions of inches.  Putts are made or missed by fractions of inches. Same thing with "safe" and "out."  And if a wrestler loses/wins a match because of a few seconds riding time...so be it.  No one should be able to "hang on the ankle."  That's not right either, but I certainly do not begrudge anyone who can control the top man with a variety of skills and change-offs...It's very difficult to put a good kid on his back and even harder when he's fighting like hell to get out from bottom...you will be lucky to get riding time....riding time is the reward/consequence for being able to control a bottom man who is very active but can't be put on his back. 

I think the concept of riding time, perhaps in your era, was justified and provided some merit. I've only been around college wrestling approaching 25 years, so my scope of why I don't like riding time comes from this era.  I'm pretty sure that's the mentality of many of those who didn't witness the late 60's, 70's, 80's...I would refer you to watch the Tomasello/Lee match if you want to see excellent top/bottom wrestling...it was with the dual or the BIG tourney...I just remember how impressed I was with how tenacious both were in each position.  EXCELLENT. 

Wrestling's got three positions, top, bottom and neutral. I think proficiency on top should be about turning and going for the fall, not hanging on and going for a point for hanging on for a minute. I guess I don't understand how one can be "hanging on for minute."  That should only happen if a ref allows it to happen...and/or  the bottom man allows it to happen and has no offense.  I will still maintain that if top man was awarded 1 pt for every 30 seconds of control, top/bottom wrestling would be incredibly entertaining...

I don't subscribe to a theory that we should go freestyle, but I've just never liked riding time. I also don't subscribe to the theory that one style is wholly superior to the other. I like them both.

Thanks for your response and thanks for your many contributions to the sport of wrestling.  Respectfully,  Pat

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On 11/21/2019 at 11:43 PM, spladle08 said:

NCAA as in Folk? Or do you think the Universities would stop supporting their athletes, and kids would start turning down free education, if the style more closely aligned with their World and Olympic dreams?

 

I'd certainly stop watching if D1 went Freestyle. I'm just one fan but I bet a huge chunk of fans would be lost if a switch was made to FS. Plus I bet wrestling would lose a lot of generous patrons of the sport as well. But if your goal is having our college kids wrestling FS in front of even more empty gymnasiums, I think you are on the right path.

 

Edited by TobusRex

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On 11/21/2019 at 10:39 PM, JasonBryant said:

I wholly and mightily shot down your claim of 1-0 stallfests by using the results from the 2019 World Championships. There wasn't a single 1-0 bout. If you want to try to argue that I said something I didn't to try to back yourself out of the erroneous and false assertion there were "1-0 stallfests," by all means, go die on that hill, because I dare to say everyone understood the point I was making. I even explained it by stating 4-0, 5-0. I know what the word "lack" means. I provided context. I also didn't make a personal attack. Your opinion is based an incorrect assertion. That's not a personal attack, btw.  

I showed there were ZERO 1-0 matches. I was pretty sure that decision that lacked points with the description of the win type to indicate those are the 144 bouts that ended X-0 that weren't tech falls.

Fine, you didn't watch the 2019 World Championships, and you pointed to the 2018 Worlds with Snyder getting decked as the last freestyle match you watched. Ok. How many 1-0 matches occurred at that tournament? NONE! So there hasn't been a 1-0 match in the last two years at the world championships in over 1900 matches.

So no, I clearly don't know what matches you watched, because if you saw a 1-0 match, you weren't watching freestyle wrestling. I don't doubt they've happened, but they haven't happened at the last two World Championships.

By the way, there were 6 1-0 matches at the D1 championships in the last two years, with four of them last year. If there's ever a 1-0 stallfest, it's in folkstyle.

Fine, I said something that wasn't statistically true. Sue me. That doesn't change the fact that FS is about as exciting as watching paint dry. My question to the FS guys who want to do the same thing as everybody else is this: would you guys jump off a bridge if everybody else did it?

 

Yup, you would.

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On 11/21/2019 at 7:24 AM, spladle08 said:

You "can " try to score points, not all "do"and from a fan perspective it slows action to reward holding top position.
We need to start em back on their feet

"not all do"........... if the refs would FREAKING call it guys would either try working on turns OR let the guy up. Problem solved.

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On 11/21/2019 at 10:36 PM, spladle08 said:

teaching par terre offense and defense is more difficult than you'd think (ie the matches where you see guys get "rolled across the mat with no control").
It's hard to keep your kid from getting teched by these kids who dont "have control" when they have never wrestled freestyle and they're 8 years old and not realizing that 1 second turn was worth 2pts each time. 
It's also hard to teach a scrambly kid not to expose his back and all that stuff. 
Super hard to teach a condescending poster how hard it is for younger kids who are new to wrestling to grasp an alternate style theyve never competed in when theyve just not got a handle on the first one. 

I've never been a coach, so I don't know how hard it is to teach wrestling at all.

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