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TBar1977

Iowa State vs Iowa

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Gadsen pretty solid on the mic, does a great job explaining positions.  Does he normally do ISU duals?

He’s doing OK, but seems to be confused as to whether his role is play-by-play or color commentary.


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My takeaways 

Small is a serviceable backup but no chance DT AA. Need Gomez

Parker is a 7th place threat

Degan I’m not worried about. Everything went against him. Even if they were right calls, he often would get at least some of that stuff called his way. He was clearly the better wrestler. Hope it doesn’t mess up his seed. 
 

Carr is a title threat. We thought that, but now ISU will jump to top 5ish, depending on what happens to Colbrey’s ranking

Colbrey should’ve won, but man Brands is good. colbrey isn’t a title threat, but I’d say 5th is possible. 
 
All in all, ISU will rise in the tournament rankings becuase of Carr’s win

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9 minutes ago, Housebuye said:

My takeaways 

Small is a serviceable backup but no chance DT AA. Need Gomez

Parker is a 7th place threat

Degan I’m not worried about. Everything went against him. Even if they were right calls, he often would get at least some of that stuff called his way. He was clearly the better wrestler. Hope it doesn’t mess up his seed. 
 

Carr is a title threat. We thought that, but now ISU will jump to top 5ish, depending on what happens to Colbrey’s ranking

Colbrey should’ve won, but man Brands is good. colbrey isn’t a title threat, but I’d say 5th is possible. 
 
All in all, ISU will rise in the tournament rankings becuase of Carr’s win

Completely puzzled by this conclusion, and not just attacking you because a lot of people posted it. What about that match made you think Degen is clearly the better guy? He did absolutely nothing on his feet. Lugo scored the only takedown and was close to 2 more. Lugo did everything possible to lose that match and still won. He out-wrestled Degen the whole match except the final scramble, which was a 50/50 call. If he gives up the takedown there it's because of a bonehead tactical decision, not because Degen is better. 

I think the overturned back points really colored this match for a lot of people when it absolutely shouldn't. Degen took Lugo with an illegal move. The image of Lugo on his back should be erased from your memories. You don't get credit for taking someone over with an illegal move.

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9 minutes ago, Housebuye said:

Even if they were right calls, he often would get at least some of that stuff called his way. He was clearly the better wrestler.

I dont know how that is clear. Because he was close to having a takedown he is clearly better? 

If he doesnt lock around the chest, he gets reversed. The facts that he turned an illegal locking hands into back points is irrelevant. 

Lugo got the only takedown and was on the legs multiple times in the first and second period. Degen did nothing the first two periods and just kept hanging out in an overhook.

Im not thrilled or blown away with the way Lugo wrestled this match, but at no point did it appear conclusive that Degen is better IMO 

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3 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I dont know how that is clear. Because he was close to having a takedown he is clearly better? 

If he doesnt lock around the chest, he gets reversed. The facts that he turned an illegal locking hands into back points is irrelevant. 

Lugo got the only takedown and was on the legs multiple times in the first and second period. Degen did nothing the first two periods and just kept hanging out in an overhook.

Im not thrilled or blown away with the way Lugo wrestled this match, but at no point did it appear conclusive that Degen is better IMO 

I mean, it’s an opinion. 
  
I‘d bet you Degen beats Lugo if they meet at NCAAs, if you are open to it

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7 minutes ago, Housebuye said:

I mean, it’s an opinion. 
  
I‘d bet you Degen beats Lugo if they meet at NCAAs, if you are open to it

On a forum people ussually defend their opinions if someone pokes holes in their arguement. Thats what most of this is. 

I dont need to make a bet to make an arguement that Degen wasnt clearly better in this match for it to be legitimate.

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Just now, Mphillips said:

It's an opinion..."poking holes in the argument" rarely changes an opinion.

OPINION
  1. a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

Why do I need to try to convince him? I dont. However, if I think the view stated is poor or missing important context, should I not refute? 

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21 minutes ago, ConnorsDad said:

He may be ranked 5th but if he's the 5th best wrestler in the country at 184 I'll eat my own shorts

True dat. No way he is the 5th best guy at 184. He was very tentative out there. Not even an AA wrestling like that.

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2 hours ago, SamStall365247 said:

Degan looked good putting Lugo to his back because he locked hands to do it. No lock= no nearfall and still loses. 

Exactly. People are acting like Degen should get any credit for that, and that he was somehow robbed or unlucky to get that called back. He was only able to do it because of the locked hands. 

Lugo did all the work in that match. He took all of the attacks. He finished clean on one. He got out when he needed to. Degen had an illegal move, and one late counter. The locked hands sequence actually hurt Lugo. Without the chestlock, Degen can't elevate lugo through and gives up that reversal to go down 5-2 and loses the opportunity to get riding time. He would have needed an escape and takedown just to force OT.

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12 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

Exactly. People are acting like Degen should get any credit for that, and that he was somehow robbed or unlucky to get that called back. He was only able to do it because of the locked hands. 

Lugo did all the work in that match. He took all of the attacks. He finished clean on one. He got out when he needed to. Degen had an illegal move, and one late counter. The locked hands sequence actually hurt Lugo. Without the chestlock, Degen can't elevate lugo through and gives up that reversal to go down 5-2 and loses the opportunity to get riding time. He would have needed an escape and takedown just to force OT.

Degen may have thought Lugo was awarded the reversal.  That is speculation on my part but Lugo had his far hand covering Degen's far hip plus the Iowa fan base is yelling "Twooooooo". I just watched a replay showing both officials and the locked hands call does not happen until after Degen is getting back on top. Crazy situation. 

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7 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Degen may have thought Lugo was awarded the reversal.  That is speculation on my part but Lugo had his far hand covering Degen's far hip plus the Iowa fan base is yelling "Twooooooo". I just watched a replay showing both officials and the locked hands call does not happen until after Degen is getting back on top. Crazy situation. 

When they slowed down the replay, Degen is on his butt and locks.  The official is right in front of the camera indicating "no change in control" even as Degen locks around the body.  Therefore at that point, the official still believed (and is signalling) that Degen is still in control.  I'm a high school (not college) official so I am not sure of the differences in rules.  It is possible that the official was waiting for the position to resolve itself beyond reaction time so he doesn't have to keep throwing up "2" repeatedly throughout multiple scrambles.  Degen looked to have lost control but as a ref, it is often a good idea to hold points in crazy scrambles.

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

Degen may have thought Lugo was awarded the reversal.  That is speculation on my part but Lugo had his far hand covering Degen's far hip plus the Iowa fan base is yelling "Twooooooo". I just watched a replay showing both officials and the locked hands call does not happen until after Degen is getting back on top. Crazy situation. 

Which replay are you talking about? I'm pretty sure the assistant signaled locked hands immediately and held his hands above his head until the exchange ended then stopped the match. If you're talking about the flo feed, you're right that you don't see the official signal until Degen comes back on top, but that's because he's off camera the rest of the time. Regardless, if Degen doesn't lock his hands, Lugo scores the reversal. It's possible Degen would have then locked up his chest lock and done the same thing, but Lugo would not have been driving in with the same force at that point either.

I'm not sure why you're doubling down on this by the way. It's an incredibly cut and dry situation. Literally zero room for interpretation.

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

Degen may have thought Lugo was awarded the reversal.  That is speculation on my part but Lugo had his far hand covering Degen's far hip plus the Iowa fan base is yelling "Twooooooo". I just watched a replay showing both officials and the locked hands call does not happen until after Degen is getting back on top. Crazy situation. 

If you go over to BWI, crablegs has posted a video showing both refs when the call happens. The assistant saw it immediately and signaled as Degen used the chest lock to take Lugo to his back. He held the signal above his head until the action stopped and then alerted the main official. This is incredibly cut and dry, and you should admit you're wrong.

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55 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

If you go over to BWI, crablegs has posted a video showing both refs when the call happens. The assistant saw it immediately and signaled as Degen used the chest lock to take Lugo to his back. He held the signal above his head until the action stopped and then alerted the main official. This is incredibly cut and dry, and you should admit you're wrong.

I saw that video. Degen is back on top at the 3 second mark in the video and the refs hand goes up at the 5 second mark in the video. And the question isn't whether you or I see the hand go up, its two different things than that. One, was there a reversal. Ultimately the refs said no to that question. That's fine. Two, as an aside, did Degen think he had been reversed? That is the question I posed today. Not that this would matter if the refs don't rule that way, just interesting. 

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I've seen Colbray make some real boneheaded decisions in the past 2 years, the coaching staff has to own some of that too.

A. The Brands TD was at best suspect

B. For him to automatically cut him instead of trying to ride the whole :30 after dogging him in the 2nd period made no sense to me.  He never even sniffed a leg.

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16 minutes ago, LordNelson said:

I've seen Colbray make some real boneheaded decisions in the past 2 years, the coaching staff has to own some of that too.

A. The Brands TD was at best suspect

B. For him to automatically cut him instead of trying to ride the whole :30 after dogging him in the 2nd period made no sense to me.  He never even sniffed a leg.

What was suspect about the takedown? That seemed like a textbook rear standing/no reaction time takedown. Knee and hand on the mat with Brands covering the hips from behind.

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On 11/24/2019 at 3:13 PM, TBar1977 said:

Lee won 17-2, but damn that was actually hard fought from Mackall. 

Surviving that bar half was impressive, and IIRC, he ended up with a reversal.

Of course, Lee put 17 points on a projected AA in under 3 minutes.  Not to mention, turned a good kid with a half.  Granted, he also had the bar in, but you rarely see good high school kids turned with a half.

Although we may see them wrestle in freestyle, can you imagine if Gross stayed at 125 for the college season?

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9 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

 

What was suspect about the takedown? That seemed like a textbook rear standing/no reaction time takedown. Knee and hand on the mat with Brands covering the hips from behind.

Although I think it was probably two, I imagine those that don't aren't convinced Brands had Colbray's hips covered the moment his hand touched.  It was definitely close, and something like hip coverage is more contextual than, e.g. locked hands.

Regardless, I too wondered why Colbray didn't try to ride him out.  He also begin shooting in complete desperation at the whistle, with plenty of time to set up something higher percentage.

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