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TBar1977

Some people are confused about the concept of ducking

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I saw this subject alluded to (here and elsewhere) last weekend when Penn Statye did not put anyone on the mat at 184 vs. ASU. Why? Chreighton Edsell was supposed to be wrestling and reportedly failed a skin check. Even if you buy into some conspiracy theory that Edsell didn't fail a skin check, why would Edsell duck Zahid Valencia? What is he protecting? 

The alternate conspiracy theory suggested that Shakur Rasheed was ducking, but Shakur is recovering from injury. He isn't ready to go. How could his not wrestling when he's obviously still recovering from injury be considered ducking? 

To me, ducking is what happens when a guy who has been wrestling, thus proving he is healthy enough to wrestle, skips a match against a wrestler most fans think could potentially beat him and then subsequently wrestles again in the very near future. 

Edited by TBar1977

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2 minutes ago, jchapman said:

He was in the same building while Wick schooled his backup.

I clearly said he didn’t travel to the Friday dual....psu Wisconsin wrestled on a Sunday....and yes by “schooled” his backup you mean beating mason manville 6-1 ? 

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1 minute ago, Antitroll2828 said:

I clearly said he didn’t travel to the Friday dual....psu Wisconsin wrestled on a Sunday....and yes by “schooled” his backup you mean beating mason manville 6-1 ? 

I clearly comprehended what you wrote.

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If someone is saying Edsall was ducking, then they do not understand ducking and it should end there. Just like Vizzini using the term "inconceivable"

As to Rasheed ducking, I think it would be unfair to throw someone coming of ACL surgery against the #1 of the weight and maybe one of the all time greats in Zahid Valencia.  Not ducking in my book because there's no downside to Rasheed wrestling Zahid since we have been told that losses do not count towards seeding.

The only problem is, if there is a limitation on number of wrestlers to bring on an away meet and the intent was to never wrestle Rasheed, then why bring him at all? To play games in case they dont win the coin toss to freeze Zahid with a FFT?

Why not bring a utility guy to bump up (they seem to be redshirting every other backup in 174 and 184 so i think the next available guy would be Konner Kraeszig at 165) and potentially only give up a tech and possibly win the dual? Especially if there is potential skin issue which could have popped up overnight, but chances are it probably did not.

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I have no clue if PSU ducked or not. It doesn’t seem like they did in this scenario. But ducking is probably the most detrimental thing college wrestling faces when trying to grow the sport. I’m a fan of a very random school that doesn’t have a huge fan base (UNC). So when I tune into a big 10 (or any other conferences team) dual I want to see the top 25 matchups. I have 0 desire to see a backup come in and get teched by a top 5 guy so that another top 5-10 guy can protect his NCAA seed.

I will say I have a lot of respect for wrestlers who go out of their way to make “big time” matchups happen. Most recently Gross bumping up to 141 to take on Meredith and Rivera bumping to 133 to take on Micic. 

Edited by goheels1812

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8 minutes ago, Fighting_Blue_Jay said:

If someone is saying Edsall was ducking, then they do not understand ducking and it should end there. Just like Vizzini using the term "inconceivable"

As to Rasheed ducking, I think it would be unfair to throw someone coming of ACL surgery against the #1 of the weight and maybe one of the all time greats in Zahid Valencia.  Not ducking in my book because there's no downside to Rasheed wrestling Zahid since we have been told that losses do not count towards seeding.

The only problem is, if there is a limitation on number of wrestlers to bring on an away meet and the intent was to never wrestle Rasheed, then why bring him at all? To play games in case they dont win the coin toss to freeze Zahid with a FFT?

Why not bring a utility guy to bump up (they seem to be redshirting every other backup in 174 and 184 so i think the next available guy would be Konner Kraeszig at 165) and potentially only give up a tech and possibly win the dual? Especially if there is potential skin issue which could have popped up overnight, but chances are it probably did not.

I have heard it speculated by fans that if ASU knew Edsell failed a skin check and were getting a walk over at 184, perhaps Zahid bumps up to 197. If Rasheed weighs in then Zahid would not bump up. Fan speculation there. 

Edited by TBar1977

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8 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

I have heard it speculated by fans that if ASU knew Edsell failed a skin check and were getting a walk over at 184, perhaps Zahid bumps up to 197. If Rasheed weighs in then Zahid would not bump up. Fan speculation there. 

Who had to present first at 184?

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First off it’s not the wrestler who ducks, it’s the coach.

I’ll give Rasheed a pass since he hasn’t wrestled at all yet.

If not for the skin issue though, FF’ing to Zahid with a healthy wrestler available would definitely have been a duck.   

Edited by 1032004

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8 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

First off it’s not the wrestler who ducks, it’s the coach.

I’ll give Rasheed a pass since he hasn’t wrestled at all yet.

 

If a coach doesn't wrestle a healthy wrestler to protect seeding, rpi, doesn't want to provide early info, etc then the wrestler has 'ducked' the competition. Obviously the coach made the decision but its wrestler A ducking wrestler B in that specific dual.  I also do not consider that's the case for Rasheed in the ASU dual.

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6 minutes ago, ionel said:

If a coach doesn't wrestle a healthy wrestler to protect seeding, rpi, doesn't want to provide early info, etc then the wrestler has 'ducked' the competition. Obviously the coach made the decision but its wrestler A ducking wrestler B in that specific dual.  I also do not consider that's the case for Rasheed in the ASU dual.

Sure but it’s the coach that should be getting the criticism 

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32 minutes ago, ionel said:

Who had to present first at 184?

I thought Penn State won the toss and chose odds so ASU would have to present at 184

Reading the actual rule:

274820899_2019-20rulechanges.png.13045e8061eb94b34a05eb90405cb59a.png

So here's a question, probably a stupid one but... is 125 always odd and 285 always even regardless of what weight the dual starts at? otherwise it seems like the loser of the toss has more control (ie PSU could have won the toss and chose odds, but ASU could chose to start at 133 thus changing the odd/even order). I assume this isnt the case and 125 is always considered odd and subsequent weights follow suit

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5 minutes ago, Fighting_Blue_Jay said:

, probably a stupid one but... is 125 always odd and 285 always even regardless of what weight the dual starts at? otherwise it seems like the loser of the toss has more control (ie PSU could have won the toss and chose odds, but ASU could chose to start at 133 thus changing the odd/even order). I assume this isnt the case and 125 is always considered odd and subsequent weights follow suit

Art. 2. Odd and Even Weight Classifications. Odd weight classes are 125, 141, 157, 174 and 197� Even weight classes are 133, 149, 165, 184 and Heavyweight� 

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21 minutes ago, Fighting_Blue_Jay said:

I thought Penn State won the toss and chose odds so ASU would have to present at 184

Reading the actual rule:

274820899_2019-20rulechanges.png.13045e8061eb94b34a05eb90405cb59a.png

So here's a question, probably a stupid one but... is 125 always odd and 285 always even regardless of what weight the dual starts at? otherwise it seems like the loser of the toss has more control (ie PSU could have won the toss and chose odds, but ASU could chose to start at 133 thus changing the odd/even order). I assume this isnt the case and 125 is always considered odd and subsequent weights follow suit

I think the first match is odd regardless of what weight.

I’m reading that as, if you win the toss and want to choose odd/even,  then you don’t actually choose until after the other coach selects the starting weight.

Edit: whoops, nevermind I’m wrong

 

Edited by 1032004

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