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klehner

A peek inside grey-shirting

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2 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

I have no issue with grey/red shirting.  Except by institutions that claim elite status.  It cheapens them.  

 

I’m curious what you think of Stanford. It is an HYPS school and therefore in the elite of the elite, above all but three Ivies, and it is arguably the biggest jock school in the country. Or what about Duke, which is not traditionally elite but has achieved that status more recently? Similarly, Northwestern? And an up and comer in the tier below Ivy+: Notre Dame?

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3 minutes ago, red blades said:

Billy I'll try to speak slowly and use small words just for you!  They... aren't... breaking.... any... rules.  This has all been checked out.  And all of the other ivies are doing the same thing.  In fact, as I've written before - Penn and Harvard started the practice years ago.

 

G'night, Billy!

Technically they aren't breaking a rule, but what they are doing is even worse than a real redshirt because the students don't have access to taking classes at Cornell. Isn't the point of going to Cornell to take classes there? And what Penn/Harvard do isn't close to comparable. I'd have no issues if Cornell did this once in a while in unique situations, but at this point basically everyone who is recruited to Cornell spends a year at community college first.  The entire premise of Ivy league athletics is that education is the priority.

So I hope you enjoy watching your team dominate the league, but they are making a mockery of the entire premise of having an ivy league.  Like I said, they should either leave the league or play by the spirit of the rules.  I'm not claiming that they have an advantage over other state schools like PSU, tOSU, Iowa, etc.  

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50 minutes ago, red blades said:

Mom and Dad, Grampa, Aunt Betty - take your pick.  I don't know for sure (and I doubt you know either) but I'd be pretty darn sure it's not Cornell, nor any other Ivy League school.

It's a good probability that its thru the regional training center and trustees and alumni. Might be grant's, or loans something. 

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5 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I’m curious what you think of Stanford. It is an HYPS school and therefore in the elite of the elite, above all but three Ivies, and it is arguably the biggest jock school in the country. Or what about Duke, which is not traditionally elite but has achieved that status more recently? Similarly, Northwestern? And an up and comer in the tier below Ivy+: Notre Dame?

I know you aren't asking me but i'll give an opinion.  Stanford is a much better school than Cornell academically, but they aren't in an athletic conference that claims to be elite because of the rules protecting the athletes.  Cornell could do exactly what they're doing now, but leave the ivy league, and it would still be a very good school.  It's just wrong for them to compete in the ivy league.  I'd have the same issues with them if they were in D3 and doing this.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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2 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

.  It's just wrong for them to compete in the ivy league.  I'd have the same issues with them if they were in D3 and doing this.  

Your opinion is appreciated but answers a different question than the one posed. Elite status and athletics have long been intertwined. I don’t get why accepting a small minority of students who are athletes first and students second cheapens an elite school. Stanford is not unique in this regard, as I’ve mentioned a few times. 
 

Cornell is not breaking rules. Other Ivies are following suit as has been mentioned a few times already. Also, I think it’s obvious from this thread’s replies that very few who are commenting actually have experience with Ivy League sports in general, not just wrestling. Stretching the spirit of the league to win more is prevalent in every Ivy, Harvard very much included, every year, just not in blue-collar wrestling. Every Ivy has a way to gain an advantage in its particular sports of choice (f94 Cornell and increasingly Princeton, wrestling happens to be one such sport) that the university administration doesn’t love but tolerates because of the financial impact to the university and for the sake of student diversity. 

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Just now, wrestlingnerd said:

Your opinion is appreciated but answers a different question than the one posed. Elite status and athletics have long been intertwined. I don’t get why accepting a small minority of students who are athletes first and students second cheapens an elite school. Stanford is not unique in this regard, as I’ve mentioned a few times. 
 

Cornell is not breaking rules. Other Ivies are following suit as has been mentioned a few times already. Also, I think it’s obvious from this thread’s replies that very few who are commenting actually have experience with Ivy League sports in general, not just wrestling. Stretching the spirit of the league to win more is prevalent in every Ivy, Harvard very much included, every year, just not in blue-collar wrestling. Every Ivy has a way to gain an advantage in its particular sports of choice (f94 Cornell and increasingly Princeton, wrestling happens to be one such sport) that the university administration doesn’t love but tolerates because of the financial impact to the university and for the sake of student diversity. 

OK, yeah, then we agree on the elite status thing.  

And in terms of stretching the rules for the ivy league-yes they all do things like decreasing academic standards and grey shirting in boarding schools.  But having a shadow campus semi-affiliated with the school is beyond anything i've seen in a different sport.  I know it's not technically breaking the rule, but it's an absolute mockery of the entire point of having the redshirt rule.  Them doing this has nothing to do with diversity and everything to do with $$$.  It's not a coincidence that Cornell and Princeton are the two schools with the lowest admission standards for wrestling in the ivy (I have less of a problem with lowering admission standards than the redshirt setup though).  

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6 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

If they're renting at below market rates it threatens the eligibility of the athletes.  If they're renting at market rates it's not an issue.  

It's a room in a house.  For those gray shirting, they are D1 athletes, so there are no rules broken. And when they become d1 athletes, they get money for housing thru scholarship. 

 

Ans I dont know If you are missing some of the facts. But any student and any school can do this.  

You could go into the military and wrestle for the All-service team for 4 or more years, then go to college.   You could go to the Olympic training center and wrestle for a yr, then enroll.  Or many other options.  

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2 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

OK, yeah, then we agree on the elite status thing.  

And in terms of stretching the rules for the ivy league-yes they all do things like decreasing academic standards and grey shirting in boarding schools.  But having a shadow campus semi-affiliated with the school is beyond anything i've seen in a different sport.  I know it's not technically breaking the rule, but it's an absolute mockery of the entire point of having the redshirt rule.  Them doing this has nothing to do with diversity and everything to do with $$$.  It's not a coincidence that Cornell and Princeton are the two schools with the lowest admission standards for wrestling in the ivy (I have less of a problem with lowering admission standards than the redshirt setup though).  

I listed money first and diversity second for a reason. Money matters, but it’s not literally 100% of the consideration. No Ivy is recruiting and grayshirting pianists or aspiring politicians, but being elite not just academically but in every facet of the student body is in fact a consideration for which admissions bend their standards every year. 
 

You mention the PG grayshirt (at the more traditionally favored sports).That’s not a mockery of the system? That’s OK to you but grayshirting, whether at a shadow campus or elsewhere, is not? I think it’s a lot worse. Take a close look at which schools exploit that loophole, at whose expense, and at which schools (no surprise, the least academically rigorous prep schools that still make sense for entry into Ivies), and tell me with a straight face that that’s cool but what some of the Ivies are doing in wrestling isn’t. 

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2 hours ago, red blades said:

I don't see it as a conflict given that the same accommodation (deferred admission or voluntary leave) is available to all students.  The point of the prohibition against a true redshirt is that this essentially gives athletes an extra scholarship year not available to other students.  But if they take a year off om their own dime - fair game  

These guys are taking a few classes, so not sure how that works later on.  One thing that annoyed me with Cornell in particular was Palacio only went to school half of the time his final two years.  We can guess which semesters those were.  Koll called it "graduation management". 

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5 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I listed money first and diversity second for a reason. Money matters, but it’s not literally 100% of the consideration. No Ivy is recruiting and grayshirting pianists or aspiring politicians, but being elite not just academically but in every facet of the student body is in fact a consideration for which admissions bend their standards every year. 
 

You mention the PG grayshirt (at the more traditionally favored sports).That’s not a mockery of the system? That’s OK to you but grayshirting, whether at a shadow campus or elsewhere, is not? I think it’s a lot worse. Take a close look at which schools exploit that loophole, at whose expense, and at which schools (no surprise, the least academically rigorous prep schools that still make sense for entry into Ivies), and tell me with a straight face that that’s cool but what some of the Ivies are doing in wrestling isn’t. 

The problem I have with the Cornell system is that the guys are on campus but aren't able to enroll in classes at Cornell.  It's an even worse version of a redshirt, since during a redshirt year the athletes can take university classes.  If they took an extra year in HS like a PG year, I wouldn't have a problem with it, since they are just deferring enrollment and are unaffiliated with the university.

 

But if the point you're making is that the ivy league athletics as a whole is a joke in terms of the standards they claim to set, then I do agree with you. I think that's why you find resentment between the students who get into those schools on merit and the athletes/legacies.  I just find the Cornell greyshirt in wrestling to be the most egregious example of the whole thing because they are on campus and not taking university classes.

Edited by Billyhoyle

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3 hours ago, nom said:

Oi.  Ok, well at least make sure to target all the Elite schools - whoever they are.  Perhaps Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Michigan, UNC, Ivy’s ...  

I’ll look forward to seeing you denigrate Michigan for redshirting.  I won’t hold my breath.
 

https://money.com/money/best-colleges/profile/university-of-michigan-ann-arbor/

 

The admissions process is compromised at those institutions, at a minimum.  Judging from various scandals that have occurred over the years, the academic expectations have been compromised as well.  Unsettling that institutions dont want to avoid those stigmas.

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1 minute ago, Plasmodium said:

The admissions process is compromised at those institutions, at a minimum.  Judging from various scandals that have occurred over the years, the academic expectations have been compromised as well.  Unsettling that institutions dont want to avoid those stigmas.

Not everyone can be MIT and Caltech.  

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3 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

 

But if the point you're making is that the ivy league athletics as a whole is a joke in terms of the standards they claim to set, then I do agree with you. I think that's why you find resentment between the students who get into those schools on merit and the athletes/legacies.  I just find the Cornell greyshirt in wrestling to be the most egregious example of the whole thing because they are on campus and not taking university classes.

That’s kind of the point except that I totally disagree that the RTC grayshirt loophole is the most egregious. 
 

Take the PG year as one of various examples.  You’re taking kids who want to matriculate but literally cannot because they are so underqualified academically that they can’t even meet the minimum Ivy League AI standard (truly not much of a hurdle). You shove them into a HS that cooperates with you to shore up their grades and SATs to the bare minimum, thereby depriving non-recruited students who may be actually deserving of admission from getting in (every HS in the country, even the most elite, has a soft quota at every Ivy), and you warehouse what is effectively a freshman All-Ivy All-Star team for entry next year. Not to speak of how fair this is for this 19-20 year old all-star team to be playing against HS kids.... 

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11 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Not everyone can be MIT and Caltech.  

MIT doesn’t care about sports but they do care about money as their endowment and ever-increasing annual fund are testament. They bend admissions in other ways. The income gap of their student body’s parents has never been higher and it is becoming a problem. 
 

I do I agree Caltech Is one of the very few elite schools that is as close to perfectly meritocratic as is practicable. 

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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44 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I’m curious what you think of Stanford. It is an HYPS school and therefore in the elite of the elite, above all but three Ivies, and it is arguably the biggest jock school in the country. Or what about Duke, which is not traditionally elite but has achieved that status more recently? Similarly, Northwestern? And an up and comer in the tier below Ivy+: Notre Dame?

I haven't thought about them.  All of the big football and some of the basketball schools are compromised in significant ways.  I have known a couple of people that wrestled or are wrestling at Stanford. They had worthy applications without sports.   Another local kid was football player of the week in the newspaper.  They published his GPA as 3.5.  He played at Stanford, doubtful he would have been admitted without FB.  

Anyway, these teams stay in their lanes.  Everybody knows they play by two sets of rules.  The Ivy league wants people to believe there is only one set of rules. 

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while i'm at it i'm also going to pretend to understand the admissions and financial aid policies of the schools that don't offer any athletic scholarships and make vague references to things i definitely only read one sentence about once 

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10 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

MIT doesn’t care about sports but they do care about money as their endowment and ever-increasing annual fund are testament. They bend admissions in other ways. The income gap of their student body’s parents has never been higher and it is becoming a problem. 
 

I do I agree Caltech Is one of the very few elite schools that is as close to perfectly meritocratic as is practicable. 

I'd refer you to Jeff Epstein for an MIT financial reference but the silence would be deafening.

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1 hour ago, Rich-JerseyStrong said:

It's a good probability that its thru the regional training center and trustees and alumni. Might be grant's, or loans something. 

This isn't actually allowed is it?

50 minutes ago, Rich-JerseyStrong said:

It's a room in a house.  For those gray shirting, they are D1 athletes, so there are no rules broken. And when they become d1 athletes, they get money for housing thru scholarship. 

Do you mean "For those that are gray shirting, they are NOT D1 athletes"?  If so, I would still say that's fishy.   Aren't they still basically considered recruits? And the "scholarships" you refer to are academic/need-based, correct?

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7 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

I haven't thought about them.  All of the big football and some of the basketball schools are compromised in significant ways.  I have known a couple of people that wrestled or are wrestling at Stanford. They had worthy applications without sports.   Another local kid was football player of the week in the newspaper.  They published his GPA as 3.5.  He played at Stanford, doubtful he would have been admitted without FB.  

Anyway, these teams stay in their lanes.  Everybody knows they play by two sets of rules.  The Ivy league wants people to believe there is only one set of rules. 

A majority of Stanford's All-Americans in all sports would not be admissible without their recruited athlete status. If you're going to ask for backup on that, well, it doesn't exist outside of the admissions office's four walls (and even within it, historical data is closely guarded). I do know the school well, and that's all I can say. I don't think what I'm claiming is some big secret either. One of the ways Stanford raised its endowment to HYP levels, thereby elbowing its way to HYPS status, is through their athletic juggernaut of a system (of course, the rise of Silicon Valley played a principal role there and athletics was a sideshow in comparison). It is impressive, and I mean that in the best way possible. I am a believer in the idea that elite academics does not have to mean tier 2 or 3 sports. At Stanford and other elite non-Ivy schools now, the problem is not the intent of the admissions department in having a "second set of rules" as you put it. It's that the second set of rules applies to so many sports and so many athletes that it is impossible to police, as we all found out in the recent national admissions scandal.

I beg to differ on the Ivy League wanting to believe there is only one set of rules. There IS only one set of rules. If the Ivy League truly wanted to tighten its loopholes, it would be a cinch to do so. But they don't. If sports matter at Stanford and the other Ivy+, they matter at the actual Ivies. As I said, the administration turns a blind eye to controlled excesses in athletics so long as there is no outright violation of the rules and it's not too widespread (there are only so many 1200 SAT scores you can take and so many January Z-list spots to give out.... and of course, a hefty amount of those are reserved for the all-important legacies and development candidates). 

We like to poke fun at Cornell on this forum because wrestling is one of their favored sports. I find that incredibly ironic. Would it be better if they favored soccer or golf? Do we as a wrestling community wish that Steven Friedman had never gotten involved with the program and let it die on the vine like Yale and Dartmouth did? And now, as Novogratz and friends become increasing patrons of Princeton (and therefore New Jersey wrestling, and really, all of wrestling in this country), we take more potshots at Princeton? If only people know how close to death some of the Ivy wrestling programs were not that long ago, the entire forum would be singing a different tune. 

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