A peek inside grey-shirting

[Plasmodium 2,220]

Beg to differ that people think there is one set of rules, eh? :)  Point out how many athletes are enrolled in the Ag College, grab some popcorn and watch the fireworks.

[Asa Packer 13]

"Cornell's advantage is not "greyshirting." Their advantage is that state AG school. I am curious as to what % of their wrestlers get in through this loophole not available to other Ivies."

Oh, boy, mention SUNY Ithaca and the sparks will fly.

"Point out how many athletes are enrolled in the Ag College, grab some popcorn and watch the fireworks."

 

 

[klehner 730]

8 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

The admissions process is compromised at those institutions, at a minimum.  Judging from various scandals that have occurred over the years, the academic expectations have been compromised as well.  Unsettling that institutions dont want to avoid those stigmas.

It's not compromised.  We've had this stupid conversation before.  Cornell, Princeton, Stanford, Michigan, etc., don't admit students who can't succeed academically.  Period.  There's no compromise.  Princeton could have an entire freshman class consisting of Asian kids from NJ who have 1600 SAT scores and a 4.3GPA, but they don't, and they have most kids with lower academic credentials than that.  Ask yourself why that might be.  Same for Stanford, Cal Berkeley, and just about every other elite school.

[klehner 730]

8 hours ago, Greatdane67 said:

Cornell's advantage is not "greyshirting." Their advantage is that state AG school. I am curious as to what % of their wrestlers get in through this loophole not available to other Ivies. 

 

 

 

Why is it a "loophole" that Cornell is a Land Grant University?  How many kids get into Cornell via the Ag School who aren't wrestlers?

How many kids get into Harvard or Princeton because those schools can provide full tuition through the "loophole" of their massive endowment not available to other Ivies?

[witwhiz 45]

That must be a pretty good size house owned by the Cornell alum to house all 14 (according to wrestlestat) FLWC/Cornell wrestlers.  Who pays for their meals, their equipment, their tournament and transportation fees, and other expenses?  Who provides health services not covered by medical insurance?  

Edited December 5, 2019 by witwhiz

[leshismore 216]

Billy and Whiz must be a real hoot at parties.  Lighten up guys.

How these kids want to live their lives, is, simply, none of your business.

Many of you on here should be embarrassed with your condemnatory comments. 

Go to a religion website and pontificate with your judgmental, pejorative comments.

 
Again, you should be ashamed of yourselves how you castigate and chastise kids just who are making sound decisions to better themselves. 

And finally, no one cares if YOU don’t “like” the system that supports kids in their life decisions. 

 

[Billyhoyle 2,469]

14 minutes ago, leshismore said:

Billy and Whiz must be a real hoot at parties.  Lighten up guys.

How these kids want to live their lives, is, simply, none of your business.

Many of you on here should be embarrassed with your condemnatory comments. 

Go to a religion website and pontificate with your judgmental, pejorative comments.

 
Again, you should be ashamed of yourselves how you castigate and chastise kids just who are making sound decisions to better themselves. 

And finally, no one cares if YOU don’t “like” the system that supports kids in their life decisions. 

 

It's a bit ironic that the first person who is condemning/chastising people in this thread is you. I have simply criticized the system that Cornell has implemented given its blatant disregard for the entire purpose of the no redshirting rule in the ivies. I'm not sure how you took that to be an attack on "kids," but please don't resort to personal attacks on other posters here--simply disagreeing with the points that we are making is sufficient.  

 

Also, I get that most people think the whole "no redshirting in the ivy league" rule is dumb. Outside of the ivy league, it doesn't matter that Cornell has found a loophole around it, since they don't have any advantage over Iowa, tOSU, PSU, etc.  But I think one of the great things about the ivy league is that the students are expected to be students first and graduate in four years while competing, aren't able to get athletic scholarships, and have a more limited practice/competition schedule. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Billyhoyle

[1032004 1,408]

9 minutes ago, leshismore said:

Billy and Whiz must be a real hoot at parties.  Lighten up guys.

How these kids want to live their lives, is, simply, none of your business.

Many of you on here should be embarrassed with your condemnatory comments. 

Go to a religion website and pontificate with your judgmental, pejorative comments.

 
Again, you should be ashamed of yourselves how you castigate and chastise kids just who are making sound decisions to better themselves. 

And finally, no one cares if YOU don’t “like” the system that supports kids in their life decisions. 

 

I don't think anyone is really criticizing the kids, moreso the school.

It might not be our business, but if Cornell/FLRTC is subsidizing housing for their prospective athletes, I would think that might be the NCAA's business unless I'm not up to date on the latest rules (which is possible).

[Lurie92 2]

How old were Mark Hall, Logan Stieber, and Eric Grajales when they entered their freshmen year of college? they were not 18 lol they definitely took a few kindergarten blueshirts.

How come a Mormon is able to take a mission and still compete in college athletics at 26/27? because it falls under religious obligations? LAUGHABLE

Eli stickley and Alex Marinelli were home schooled! yet got to receive the benefits of wrestling for one of the best programs in the country.....

My point being their are ways around everything, and the only people who should be upset are the ones who are not benefiting from it the action. Who cares that IVYs have specific rules. Fans/media love to have so many opinions on collegiate athletes whether it being about getting paid/eligibility. grow up and just appreciate to you get to watch these tremendous athletes compete! 

The truth of the matter is redshirting is an outdated term, it was initially put into place to help students with their workload, at most D1 universities athletes are given every advantage possible to succeed in their classroom whether by tutors or teacher help. In todays world wrestlers have proven over & over again, that your top guys are ready to compete right out of the gate. You want an even playing field eliminate the concept in general, but that will never happen. 

[Billyhoyle 2,469]

1 minute ago, Lurie92 said:

Who cares that IVYs have specific rules.

The teams in the ivy league that follow the rules and have to compete against those who don't care.  I agree though that in terms of Cornell vs Iowa or tOSU, Cornell's loophole isn't an advantage at all.  

[BLT 86]

10 hours ago, Rich-JerseyStrong said:

It's a room in a house.  For those gray shirting, they are D1 athletes, so there are no rules broken. And when they become d1 athletes, they get money for housing thru scholarship. 

 

Ans I dont know If you are missing some of the facts. But any student and any school can do this.  

You could go into the military and wrestle for the All-service team for 4 or more years, then go to college.   You could go to the Olympic training center and wrestle for a yr, then enroll.  Or many other options.  

I thought Ivy League did not give scholarships?

[Housebuye 2,417]

14 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

I have no issue with grey shirts.  Gap years are good.  Nonetheless, it cheapens Cornell to do it.  Is it the only Ivy that aspires to be a jock school?

Did you read the article? Do you think Princeton is a jock school too?

[klehner 730]

23 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

It's a bit ironic that the first person who is condemning/chastising people in this thread is you. I have simply criticized the system that Cornell has implemented given its blatant disregard for the entire purpose of the no redshirting rule in the ivies. I'm not sure how you took that to be an attack on "kids," but please don't resort to personal attacks on other posters here--simply disagreeing with the points that we are making is sufficient.  

 

Also, I get that most people think the whole "no redshirting in the ivy league" rule is dumb. Outside of the ivy league, it doesn't matter that Cornell has found a loophole around it, since they don't have any advantage over Iowa, tOSU, PSU, etc.  But I think one of the great things about the ivy league is that the students are expected to be students first and graduate in four years while competing, aren't able to get athletic scholarships, and have a more limited practice/competition schedule. 

Fine.  Let us hear your set of Ivy League rules that would disallow what you think Cornell is doing that is so wrong, and still allow accepted students to defer enrollment and do whatever the f*** they want to do before matriculating.

[1032004 1,408]

9 minutes ago, Housebuye said:

Did you read the article? Do you think Princeton is a jock school too?

Kolodzik was the only Princeton wrestler mentioned that actually took a “gap year” after HS.

It just seems to be much more common at Cornell.  I mean even Cardenas was quoted in the article as saying “it’s what the coaches think is best for the team,” no mention of making sure they’re prepared academically.    The closest thing they said to academics was Fernandes saying “well we’re up here focusing on wrestling, might as well knock some classes out.”

[Housebuye 2,417]

12 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Kolodzik was the only Princeton wrestler mentioned that actually took a “gap year” after HS.

It just seems to be much more common at Cornell.  I mean even Cardenas was quoted in the article as saying “it’s what the coaches think is best for the team,” no mention of making sure they’re prepared academically.    The closest thing they said to academics was Fernandes saying “well we’re up here focusing on wrestling, might as well knock some classes out.”

Fair enough. I get hangry when I haven’t had coffee yet. 
 

[leshismore 216]

29 minutes ago, klehner said:

Fine.  Let us hear your set of Ivy League rules that would disallow what you think Cornell is doing that is so wrong, and still allow accepted students to defer enrollment and do whatever the f*** they want to do before matriculating.

klehner. You are the man. Thanks. I could not have said it better.

[Billyhoyle 2,469]

32 minutes ago, klehner said:

Fine.  Let us hear your set of Ivy League rules that would disallow what you think Cornell is doing that is so wrong, and still allow accepted students to defer enrollment and do whatever the f*** they want to do before matriculating.

Basically I don’t think Cornell should be encouraging its recruiting class to take a year off and train at the FLWC in lieu of a redshirt-its even worse for the students than a redshirt year. I’m not sure exactly what rule would stop this but maybe some type of rule limiting recruited athletes from training within “x miles” of a school prior to enrollment.  This doesn’t impact athletes who want to take the year off and PG or go to the OTC. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Billyhoyle

[wrestlingnerd 2,996]

38 minutes ago, BLT said:

I thought Ivy League did not give scholarships?

They don't, as a general rule. But they have something arguably better: an unlimited amount of need-blind aid. Given that wrestling is a blue-collar sport (it ain't fencing or squash, to be sure), many Ivy wrestling families qualify for substantial aid if not an outright full ride.

(Technically, scholarships are a thing in the Ivies, but they very specific third-party or named scholarships, e.g. Rhodes scholarships, and not widespread scholarships for a significant portion of the student body.)

[wrestlingnerd 2,996]

2 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Basically I don’t think Cornell should be encouraging its recruiting class to take a year off and train at the FLWC in lieu of a redshirt-its even worse for the students than a redshirt year. I’m not sure exactly what rule would stop this but maybe some type of rule limiting recruited athletes from training within “x miles” of a school prior to enrollment.  This doesn’t impact athletes who want to take the year off and PG or go to the OTC. 

PGs, as exploited by the Ivies in the sports more traditionally favored by Ivy admissions, is worse. If anything is a mockery of the purported Ivy League scholar-athlete paradigm, it's that. 

[Billyhoyle 2,469]

6 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

PGs, as exploited by the Ivies in the sports more traditionally favored by Ivy admissions, is worse. If anything is a mockery of the purported Ivy League scholar-athlete paradigm, it's that. 

I’m not a fan of the PG year either, but at least doing a PG year is independent from the athletic program/university (I don’t know of any universities that have local prep schools where the PG athletes are actually training with the college athletes). I’m not sure what the best way is to discourage PG years though since students should be able to defer admission and if they want to PG it’s up to them. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Billyhoyle

[klehner 730]

9 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Basically I don’t think Cornell should be encouraging its recruiting class to take a year off and train at the FLWC in lieu of a redshirt-its even worse for the students than a redshirt year. I’m not sure exactly what rule would stop this but maybe some type of rule limiting recruited athletes from training within “x miles” of a school prior to enrollment.  This doesn’t impact athletes who want to take the year off and PG or go to the OTC. 

I'll mark you down as "I can't think of any set of rules that doesn't infringe on every other accepted student's right to take a year off and do whatever the f*** they want."  Or are you okay with Fernandes taking his gap year and training at the NJ RTC, for instance?

[powershouse 106]

how is this different than a prep school?

The difference is that these guys are working out with the Cornell (insert name of any school with an RTC here) team and staff in the Cornell room. Nominally they are training for international competition as part of the RTC but they aren’t working on just takedowns, guts and laces - I’m sure they are working on their folk style riding and escaping.

[Plasmodium 2,220]

50 minutes ago, Housebuye said:

Did you read the article? Do you think Princeton is a jock school too?

Yes.  Did you read what I said?

[klehner 730]

3 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

I’m not a fan of the PG year either, but at least doing a PG year is independent from the athletic program/university (I don’t know of any universities that have local prep schools where the PG athletes are actually training with the college athletes).

How about USMAPS?

[Billyhoyle 2,469]

Just now, klehner said:

I'll mark you down as "I can't think of any set of rules that doesn't infringe on every other accepted student's right to take a year off and do whatever the f*** they want."  Or are you okay with Fernandes taking his gap year and training at the NJ RTC, for instance?

I think it’s less of a problem when one person is doing it compared to an entire program that encourages everyone to do it. There can be many reasons that a student needs to take a year off, but he still should be able to train. When practically your entire recruiting class is greyshirting locally, what you have is a shadow redshirt program.