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klehner

A peek inside grey-shirting

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Just now, Billyhoyle said:

I’m not a fan of the PG year either, but at least doing a PG year is independent from the athletic program/university (I don’t know of any universities that have local prep schools where the PG athletes are actually training with the college athletes). I’m not sure what the best way is to discourage PG years though since students should be able to defer admission and if they want to PG it’s up to them. 

There is an enormous difference, in my view.

Grayshirts: 

  • Qualified to gain admission into the Ivy of choice (granted, many are only qualified after the lowered academic bar for recruited athletes, but I don't know of any grayshirt ever who did not have a choice between at least two Ivies or similarly elite schools who like wrestling before committing to their school of choice)
  • Defer a year to do as they please, thereby, at the very worst, evening the playing field with non-Ivy schools who can outright redshirt. They compete with college athletes to prepare for a higher level of competition.
  • Are rarely a financial consideration for admissions and in fact, many grayshirts actually receive substantial financial aid, to the detriment of the Ivy's annual fund and endowment.

 

PGs:

  • Often not qualified academically to even meet the Ivy League AI bar (can it get any lower than that?). Are PG'ed in HS--not even community college, but HS--to fluff their GPAs to the bare minimum under close supervision by the "sponsoring" Ivy coach (how proper that supervision is, I'll leave to others to debate). These underqualified jocks steal valuable Ivy admission slots from academically qualified would-be admits not only at the specific HS they attend for PG year, but from the overall applicant pool at large.
  • Defer a year not to do as they please, but rather, are forced to compete against HS kids they are overqualified to compete against (thereby upsetting an otherwise even playing field in HS) because they are academically underqualified. 
  • Are often a financial consideration for admissions (you kill two birds with one stone: get the underqualified jock who will bring the alumni bucks in, and also get a guy who can afford prep school and therefore doesn't qualify for aid). One of the purported benefits of recruiting athletes who need admissions help to get in is that it helps athletics while broadening the socioeconomic diversity of the school (a major focus of Ivies in this age of increasing stratification between the 1%ers who frequent their campuses and the increasingly smaller cohorts of financially lower-class students), since athletes in general are more socioeconomically diverse than 4.0 students with 1450 SATs.

There is more but I'll stop there.

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I want to add that not ALL PGs are like this. Some are young for their grade and opt to repeat a year for that reason. Some are needy of an extra  year to shore up their academics before going to college but do so of their own free will and go through the same college application process as their HS senior peers--i..e., they are not influenced by a college coach who effectively guarantees admission after the PG year. But the same can be said for HS seniors who defer admission. Not all are "grayshirting" per se.

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Wresling Nerd.  Great information.  Thank you.  I really liked this-->

Defer a year to do as they please, thereby, at the very worst, evening the playing field with non-Ivy schools who can outright redshirt. They compete with college athletes to prepare for a higher level of competition.

Great analysis.

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11 minutes ago, leshismore said:

Wresling Nerd.  Great information.  Thank you.  I really liked this-->

Defer a year to do as they please, thereby, at the very worst, evening the playing field with non-Ivy schools who can outright redshirt. They compete with college athletes to prepare for a higher level of competition.

Great analysis.

But doesn't it do more than even the playing field?  Redshirts have to carry a full academic load while they're improving their wrestling skills.  At FLWC, the group doesn't have to be distracted by academics at all.

Edited by witwhiz

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48 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

There is an enormous difference, in my view.

Grayshirts: 

  • Qualified to gain admission into the Ivy of choice (granted, many are only qualified after the lowered academic bar for recruited athletes, but I don't know of any grayshirt ever who did not have a choice between at least two Ivies or similarly elite schools who like wrestling before committing to their school of choice)
  • Defer a year to do as they please, thereby, at the very worst, evening the playing field with non-Ivy schools who can outright redshirt. They compete with college athletes to prepare for a higher level of competition.
  • Are rarely a financial consideration for admissions and in fact, many grayshirts actually receive substantial financial aid, to the detriment of the Ivy's annual fund and endowment.

Grayshirts don't get financial aid during the actual grayshirt year, correct?

I think there are almost 2 different conversations going on here:

1.  People saying Cornell is violating the "spirit" of the no-redshirt rule for the Ivies by having the majority of their recruits spend a year at FLCC.  This of course is not an advantage over the non-Ivies, and as noted it seems like a lot of other Ivies are doing this in some form, just not to the extent of Cornell.   I'm kinda on the fence on this one.

2. People saying this scenario could then lead to what I'd have to assume are impermissable benefits - housing, expenses, etc.   Unless I'm missing something in regards to the rules (again, certainly possible), everyone should agree that this should be a no-no right?   Yet even some on this thread seem to think it's no big deal if Cornell/FLRTC grayshirts are getting free/subsidized housing (not saying they are, but it seems even some Cornell fans are saying this may be happening).

Edited by 1032004

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10 minutes ago, witwhiz said:

But doesn't it do more than even the playing field?  Redshirts have to carry a full academic load while they're improving their wrestling skills.  At FLWC, the group doesn't have to be distracted by academics at all.

Redshirts are part of the team and not only practice with the team and enjoy the benefits of the university as both athletes and students, but are actually coached by the coaching staff throughout the redshirt year. Also, define full. If you are going to take 5 years to graduate, you're not taking a "full" course load, even by the less rigorous academic standards of most schools that routinely redshirt. If the grayshirts don't want to take any courses, then they'll have to pay for that by completing their coursework in 4 years. 

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wrestling nerd wrote in part,

 "If the grayshirts don't want to take any courses, then they'll have to pay for that by completing their coursework in 4 years." 

Well, that shouldn't be a problem at Cornell.  After all, this is the Ivy League we're talking about.

Edited by witwhiz

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1 hour ago, witwhiz said:

wrestling nerd wrote in part,

 "If the grayshirts don't want to take any courses, then they'll have to pay for that by completing their coursework in 4 years." 

Well, that shouldn't be a problem at Cornell.  After all, this is the Ivy League we're talking about.

My point was in response to someone saying grayshirting was better than redshirting for wrestling purposes. It isn’t. At best, it levels the playing field but in reality is inferior since you are not literally part of the team. 

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3 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

My point was in response to someone saying grayshirting was better than redshirting for wrestling purposes. It isn’t. At best, it levels the playing field but in reality is inferior since you are not literally part of the team. 

Yeah, that was me. But my understanding is that even though a grayshirt isn't part of the team, at least at Cornell they regularly practice with the team under supervision of the coaches. So I don't see much difference there.  And any disadvantage in that respect pales in comparison with the advantage of a lack of a simultaneous academic burden in one's first season with the team (at least at Cornell).

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14 minutes ago, witwhiz said:

Yeah, that was me. But my understanding is that even though a grayshirt isn't part of the team, at least at Cornell they regularly practice with the team under supervision of the coaches. So I don't see much difference there.  And any disadvantage in that respect pales in comparison with the advantage of a lack of a simultaneous academic burden in one's first season with the team (at least at Cornell).

I disagree. Having the actual coaching staff coach you is the main reason these kids choose a school to begin with. As for the difference between no school and some freshman year classes, again, I don't see much, but if there is one, it's evened out over the four official years of competition anyway. Again, at best, evens the playing field, but in my opinion, it doesn't quite do that.

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2 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

When practically your entire recruiting class is greyshirting locally, what you have is a shadow redshirt program.

Duh. You haven't explained why this violates any coherent generally-applicable standard, much less any rule. It's a gap year, spent in the shadow of the school, training for an activity the kids *want* to train for. FLWC has its own coaching staff. I don't naively assume there is no joint activity or coordination - there's clearly overlap (Dake, for example) but I also assume that the Cornell staff is careful about the recruiting contact rules. "Train together" is definitely an exaggeration. I assume NLWC is equally careful about the distinction between the RTC and the school.

Yianni didn't want to take the year, didn't need to take the year, and didn't take the year. As for "taking classes" - the kids are literally taking classes - cheap credits at TC3 - which count towards their graduation requirements and ease the academic burden that they will face in the 4 competition years.

Any FLWC wrestler getting improper benefits from anyone affiliated with the program during the gap year would absolutely jam up both himself and the school upon matriculation at Cornell. The athlete housing situation at Cornell for (at least) wrestlers and hockey players is so open and notorious that it is inconceivable to me that it isn't thoroughly vetted (by the school, its rivals, the ivy league and the NCAA) and above-board.

Edited by ugarte

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26 minutes ago, witwhiz said:

YAnd any disadvantage in that respect pales in comparison with the advantage of a lack of a simultaneous academic burden in one's first season with the team (at least at Cornell).

Wait, what?  I thought we were talking about the Ag School?  I mean, how much of an academic burden can that be?

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19 minutes ago, ugarte said:

Duh. You haven't explained why this violates any coherent generally-applicable standard, much less any rule. It's a gap year, spent in the shadow of the school, training for an activity the kids *want* to train for. Yianni didn't want to take the year, didn't need to take the year, and didn't take the year. As for "taking classes" - the kids are literally taking classes - cheap credits at TC3 - which count towards their graduation requirements and ease the academic burden that they will face in the 4 competition years.

Any FLWC wrestler getting improper benefits from anyone affiliated with the program during the gap year would absolutely jam up both himself and the school upon matriculation at Cornell. The athlete housing situation at Cornell for (at least) wrestlers and hockey players is so open and notorious that it is inconceivable to me that it isn't thoroughly vetted (by the school, its rivals, the ivy league and the NCAA) and above-board.

https://medium.com/full-court-press-cornell-daily-sun/how-the-ivy-league-is-forcing-out-student-athletes-885c8311e25a

“Coaches may not manipulate or motivate a student’s enrollment pattern to put off or to secure eligibility in some specific season; students are expected not to alter their academic or enrollment patterns in order to change the seasons in which they compete,” the policy reads.

Based on the quote from the article in the OP saying "it's what the coaches think is best for the team," that may be in violation of the rule...


I think I agree that Ivies not being allowed redshirts is an outdated rule (and doesn't give them any advantage over non-Ivies), but it's still a rule.

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35 minutes ago, klehner said:

Wait, what?  I thought we were talking about the Ag School?  I mean, how much of an academic burden can that be?

Troy Nickerson was in the Ag School- in pre-med. I don't believe the Academics are the reason athletes go there. I believe they go there because it is in the State system and after a year at FLWC (as in a year of residence) my understanding is that they are then entitled to in-state tuition costs.

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7 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Troy Nickerson was in the Ag School- in pre-med. I don't believe the Academics are the reason athletes go there. I believe they go there because it is in the State system and after a year at FLWC (as in a year of residence) my understanding is that they are then entitled to in-state tuition costs.

That was a joke, son.  Everyone is having so much fun dissing Cornell, I thought I'd try to get in on it.

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47 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

https://medium.com/full-court-press-cornell-daily-sun/how-the-ivy-league-is-forcing-out-student-athletes-885c8311e25a

 

Based on the quote from the article in the OP saying "it's what the coaches think is best for the team," that may be in violation of the rule...


I think I agree that Ivies not being allowed redshirts is an outdated rule (and doesn't give them any advantage over non-Ivies), but it's still a rule.

Good article, but it doesn't address grey-shirting, does it?  And given that Fernandes wasn't and still isn't a Cornell student, there's no violation of a rule.  Furthermore, students are free to sit out an academic semester if they so choose (even Palacio graduated with his class, I believe; others are granted a medical waiver and can continue to compete as long as they haven't graduated).  These young men know what is going on in their academic/athletic careers.

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5..... 5 pages to a concept that has been around a long time.

My opinion, if it was not 3 STUDS, this would probably be a non-issue. I am guessing some people are worried about maintainING their spot as a perennial top program.

Cornell always represents well and have a great following. This should not be surprising to anyone that this happened. Those three combined with the 3 ORS's if I were a Big Red fan I would be extremely excited. 

As a wrestling fan, I am excited for next season. FIREWORKS!!!!!!!!!!

 

Haters gonna hate

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16 hours ago, Rich-JerseyStrong said:

You can do that. AND join the All Army or All Marines team.  For 4, 6, 8 yrs or more. Then enroll in college. Nothing wrong with that. I kind of did that.  Except I wrestled for the Navy's southern Pacific team, as a Marine.  Then enrolled at a junior college, with plans to transfer to a D3 school....until they dropped their team.  

Very cool. Too bad the school you went to dropped the program though. I wrestled on Ft Gordon's team when I was in the Army, was a lot of fun. Pinned the Army champ in 56 seconds :D

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4 hours ago, powershouse said:

 


The difference is that these guys are working out with the Cornell (insert name of any school with an RTC here) team and staff in the Cornell room. Nominally they are training for international competition as part of the RTC but they aren’t working on just takedowns, guts and laces - I’m sure they are working on their folk style riding and escaping.

 

yeah, that is a bit of a difference.

i suppose any rtc could do this. and, any kid could do this... and they dont have to go to cornell when the year is up...

is air force academy prep like this? 

Edited by GockeS

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5 hours ago, powershouse said:

 


The difference is that these guys are working out with the Cornell (insert name of any school with an RTC here) team and staff in the Cornell room. Nominally they are training for international competition as part of the RTC but they aren’t working on just takedowns, guts and laces - I’m sure they are working on their folk style riding and escaping.

 

Ugarte later wrote:  "Duh. You haven't explained why this violates any coherent generally-applicable standard, much less any rule. It's a gap year, spent in the shadow of the school, training for an activity the kids *want* to train for. FLWC has its own coaching staff. I don't naively assume there is no joint activity or coordination - there's clearly overlap (Dake, for example) but I also assume that the Cornell staff is careful about the recruiting contact rules. "Train together" is definitely an exaggeration. I assume NLWC is equally careful about the distinction between the RTC and the school.

Hmmm.  We seem to have a difference in peoples' take on the facts here.  And do the recruiting rules apply once a kid has committed to a college? And if so, how can there be any contact, or "overlap" as Ugarte phrases it.

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8 minutes ago, witwhiz said:

Hmmm.  We seem to have a difference in peoples' take on the facts here.  And do the recruiting rules apply once a kid has committed to a college? And if so, how can there be any contact, or "overlap" as Ugarte phrases it.

And other schools can still try to recruit them right?   Tom Ryan seems to like getting commits to flip recently...maybe he is going after Fernandes after losing Kerk.

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55 minutes ago, Cruiser94 said:

5..... 5 pages to a concept that has been around a long time.

My opinion, if it was not 3 STUDS, this would probably be a non-issue. I am guessing some people are worried about maintainING their spot as a perennial top program.

Cornell always represents well and have a great following. This should not be surprising to anyone that this happened. Those three combined with the 3 ORS's if I were a Big Red fan I would be extremely excited. 

As a wrestling fan, I am excited for next season. FIREWORKS!!!!!!!!!!

 

Haters gonna hate

I couldn't tell you any of the wrestlers involved.  I doubt anybody could since the discussion isn't about them.  For me, the discussion is about Cornell trying to be on a level playing field with Penn State and Iowa.  That means redshirting, admission standards, academic expectations and all the subtleties involved therein.  Not a worthy goal for Cornell.

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