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Was this a pin?

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12 minutes ago, ionel said:

So you think refs should be trained to call it different when a dual between 2 unranked wrestlers, is that for all scoring or only pins? And yes it has been called in the NCAA tournament.

No.  You're right maybe they would call it at NCAA's, but I think subconsciously they'd probably be hesitant to call it on the #1 guy in the country for example

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1 hour ago, pamela said:

It would be a pin in freestyle but this is college wrestling. 

Since the action was initiated from neutral  doesn’t Hall get the benefit of reaction time to roll through while getting taken down in folkstyle? 

He was flat on his back twice, think the 1st might fit your reaction time theory not the 2nd.

 

PS:  Also to your freestyle point go back and look at recent Martinez v Nolf match.   No pin called yet it really looked like a pin, but most fans happy to watch the tech play out. 

Edited by ionel

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1 hour ago, pamela said:

It would be a pin in freestyle but this is college wrestling. 

Since the action was initiated from neutral  doesn’t Hall get the benefit of reaction time to roll through while getting taken down in folkstyle? 

Yes, he gets reaction time. Watching it live I thought to myself he has to move quickly, and before I finished the thought he moved. 

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53 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Yes, he gets reaction time. Watching it live I thought to myself he has to move quickly, and before I finished the thought he moved. 

WR20.pdf#page17

Don’t  see anything about reaction time

Edited by 1032004
Sorry apparently it’s just pasting a picture

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13 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

WR20.pdf#page17

Don’t  see anything about reaction time

Section 3. Determining the Winner

Art. 1. Fall. A fall occurs when any part of both shoulders or part of both scapulae of either wrestler is held in contact with the mat for one second� The one second count (one-thousand-one) shall be a silent count by the referee and shall start only after the referee is in position to observe that a fall is imminent� 

 

Nothing specifically about reaction time nor about mattering if wrestler is in control or not.

That having been said, in general the refs are likely to be more sure in a neutral position and perhaps even a little more so in a defensive fall situation.

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1 hour ago, gimpeltf said:

Section 3. Determining the Winner

Art. 1. Fall. A fall occurs when any part of both shoulders or part of both scapulae of either wrestler is held in contact with the mat for one second� The one second count (one-thousand-one) shall be a silent count by the referee and shall start only after the referee is in position to observe that a fall is imminent� 

 

Nothing specifically about reaction time nor about mattering if wrestler is in control or not.

That having been said, in general the refs are likely to be more sure in a neutral position and perhaps even a little more so in a defensive fall situation.

"held" implies control

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2 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

Section 3. Determining the Winner

Art. 1. Fall. A fall occurs when any part of both shoulders or part of both scapulae of either wrestler is held in contact with the mat for one second� The one second count (one-thousand-one) shall be a silent count by the referee and shall start only after the referee is in position to observe that a fall is imminent� 

 

Nothing specifically about reaction time nor about mattering if wrestler is in control or not.

That having been said, in general the refs are likely to be more sure in a neutral position and perhaps even a little more so in a defensive fall situation.

But is there an Art. 1. b.  indicating 3 second allowance/requirement if pinning a #1 ranked wrestler?  ;_;

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On 12/8/2019 at 2:18 PM, Plasmodium said:

That is the definition of a slam, the ref is asleep at the wheel.  It seemed his shoulder lifted as they were moving, no pin .  Even if it didnt, that would be BS.

Agreed. Can't land someone like that legally. Ref blew it.

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3 minutes ago, BadgerMon said:

Agreed. Can't land someone like that legally. Ref blew it.

I don’t totally disagree with this argument although hard to tell but it kinda looks like Hall tucked himself under intentionally going for the roll

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2 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I don’t totally disagree with this argument although hard to tell but it kinda looks like Hall tucked himself under intentionally going for the roll

I was just going to say the same thing. Looks like Hall hit air granby to scramble and defend. The rule says “held” for the full one count. I don’t believe Kut really held Hall on his back at all. Hall went to his own back to try and create a scramble, and as soon as he felt he was in trouble he was off his back. In a way this kind of reminds me of how I felt about the Dean/Bo action on the edge in their title match, where some were claiming 2 and maybe even 2+2. 

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6 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I was just going to say the same thing. Looks like Hall hit air granby to scramble and defend. The rule says “held” for the full one count. I don’t believe Kut really held Hall on his back at all. Hall went to his own back to try and create a scramble, and as soon as he felt he was in trouble he was off his back. In a way this kind of reminds me of how I felt about the Dean/Bo action on the edge in their title match, where some were claiming 2 and maybe even 2+2. 

It doesn't say who has to hold him. He held himself (I'm not saying he was clearly pinned here as I stated earlier). You can pin yourself, just think of a guillotine or tilt situation where you lean back to turn the other guy over. I'm sure most of us have seen situations where the offensive guy didn't realize the ref called him pinned thinking he pinned the other guy.

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3 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

It doesn't say who has to hold him. He held himself (I'm not saying he was clearly pinned here as I stated earlier). You can pin yourself, just think of a guillotine or tilt situation where you lean back to turn the other guy over. I'm sure most of us have seen situations where the offensive guy didn't realize the ref called him pinned thinking he pinned the other guy.

Thats a good point and I agree, was actually thinking about those kind of scenarios as I was writing. But also in those situations the pin isn’t called as quickly as a standard fall. 

To me the driving force is do we want to adhere more to the black and white language of the rule, or the spirit of the rule?  If we go by b/w all those scenarios are called just as quickly as the half or cradle. But is that what we really want with wrestling?

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5 hours ago, 1032004 said:

WR20.pdf#page17

Don’t  see anything about reaction time

It isn't there, but in practice you don't see situations like this called falls very often and I always took that as a reaction time situation. So it isn't in the rule, but you still rarely see this ever called. The refs obviously have an interpretation in practice that allows for reaction, even if not in the rule. 

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