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Abdullahgadzhi Khuzin

Russia is banned by WADA for 4 years

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4 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Again no or zero means exactly that. I believe previously they had to "prove" they were clean to be able to do this. It sounds like they didn't have a good means to do it. If some don't compete that would have otherwise then WADA does have at least some authority. Proving might now mean testing in a neutral location. We don't know everything they have in mind this time around. I'm sure we all have suspicions but we don't know what we don't know.

I believe we can come to an agreement here.

The authority vested to WADA would seem nonexistent if Russian athletes are allowed to compete without the proof that was required by WADA for Russian athletes to compete.

Can we agree on that?

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20 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Again no or zero means exactly that. I believe previously they had to "prove" they were clean to be able to do this. It sounds like they didn't have a good means to do it. If some don't compete that would have otherwise then WADA does have at least some authority. Proving might now mean testing in a neutral location. We don't know everything they have in mind this time around. I'm sure we all have suspicions but we don't know what we don't know.

But gross insufficiency = essentially zero authority if it takes away from the integrity of the sport. The issue is that WADA is supposed to have final authority over its signatory sports including the Olympics. If getting caught multiple times for flagrant and sophisticated state-sponsored doping & manipulation across virtiually all sports since at least 2011 isn't grounds for a ban, what is? The politics behind this sucks.

The idea of neutral testing makes sense, but the problem is Russia has already been caught replacing "dirty" samples and tampering with athlete profiles at the drug testing labs at international events. Right now, there's no defined process for validating clean Russian athletes for 2020. It also sucks for Russian athletes who are actually clean or want to compete clean but are trapped in a corrupt national system. It'll be messy either way.

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This is a quandary. I'd rather see some guilty get through than innocents banned, but I don't know how to get Russia's complete and undivided attention without suspending entire programs.  

Cheating must be rampant.  I was looking through the medal counts from 2016.  When medal counts are measured per capita,  Russia is about on par with the US.  Some countries, major ones, are way above our rate.  Britain is well over double the rate.  That implies some nasty things about them.

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With so many Russians already competing for other countries, what's to stop their guys from wrestling for Saudi Arabia or the UAE? Is there a certain amount of time before the Olys that they would need to change their nationality?

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3 minutes ago, NJDan said:

With so many Russians already competing for other countries, what's to stop their guys from wrestling for Saudi Arabia or the UAE? Is there a certain amount of time before the Olys that they would need to change their nationality?

There is a massive process for it, especially during Olympic years, assuming Russia wishes to block their 'transfer' request, which is actually a thing. It can take 2-3 years.

Listen to FRL 437 and they touch based on it around the 1h10m mark.

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8 minutes ago, NJDan said:

With so many Russians already competing for other countries, what's to stop their guys from wrestling for Saudi Arabia or the UAE? Is there a certain amount of time before the Olys that they would need to change their nationality?

3 years since the last official tournament they represented their original country.

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42 minutes ago, wrestfan said:

3 years since the last official tournament they represented their original country.

Oh, I had no idea. But if that's the case, then none of the top guys would ever be able to change countries since they would routinely be representing their original country. But maybe that's the whole idea. 

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6 minutes ago, NJDan said:

Oh, I had no idea. But if that's the case, then none of the top guys would ever be able to change countries since they would routinely be representing their original country. But maybe that's the whole idea. 

Sadulaev and Sidakov are both U23 eligible right now.

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On 12/12/2019 at 2:54 PM, nhs67 said:

Sadulaev and Sidakov are both U23 eligible right now.

... only if none of their samples are questionable etc.  

Askren said on the Rudis podcast that Russian wrestling was second to their track and field as far as number of violations.  Something like 200 violations?  (Weightlifting was third)

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13 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

... only if none of their samples are questionable etc.  

Askren said on the Rudis podcast that Russian wrestling was second to their track and field as far as number of violations.  Something like 200 violations?  (Weightlifting was third)

I understand what you're saying Mr. President.

My attemp at a point was that they are young enough where sitting out two years from UWW events wouldn't be a death knell.

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18 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

... only if none of their samples are questionable etc.  

Askren said on the Rudis podcast that Russian wrestling was second to their track and field as far as number of violations.  Something like 200 violations?  (Weightlifting was third)

If that's 2nd by total violations it's likely 1st by a ton by percentage.

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52 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

If that's 2nd by total violations it's likely 1st by a ton by percentage.

Askren's alleged numbers included Greco, free, and women's.  Also keep in mind the number of events and multiple athletes competing in track and field.

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58 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

I understand what you're saying Mr. President.

My attemp at a point was that they are young enough where sitting out two years from UWW events wouldn't be a death knell.

They would never elect me! I'm more of a behind the scenes guy.

Don't feel as if I were contradicting you, just saying there is no guarantee that either of them will be eligible this year.

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58 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

They would never elect me! I'm more of a behind the scenes guy.

Don't feel as if I were contradicting you, just saying there is no guarantee that either of them will be eligible this year.

All you founding fathers are Mr. President to me.

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On 12/13/2019 at 2:02 PM, AHamilton said:

... only if none of their samples are questionable etc.  

Askren said on the Rudis podcast that Russian wrestling was second to their track and field as far as number of violations.  Something like 200 violations?  (Weightlifting was third)

Second to track sounds pretty bad - the IAAC(? World Track & Field) has Russia banned since 2015 bc the doping and shenanigans were so rampant.

Apparently they have a process for Russian track competitors to get tested and monitored over time by some third party or something to prove they are clean - then those athletes are allowed to compete in World T&F events under a neutral flag. NBC Sports interviewed some track athletes from around the world and they say the sport has been the cleanest its been in a long time, FWIW.

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On 12/11/2019 at 6:26 PM, Plasmodium said:

This is a quandary. I'd rather see some guilty get through than innocents banned, but I don't know how to get Russia's complete and undivided attention without suspending entire programs.  

Cheating must be rampant.  I was looking through the medal counts from 2016.  When medal counts are measured per capita,  Russia is about on par with the US.  Some countries, major ones, are way above our rate.  Britain is well over double the rate.  That implies some nasty things about them.

Comparing medal count per capita is a very poor metric, especially to cast doubt about doping.

Simply put, less populated countries have more access to medals per capita than those with higher populations.

To put it in wrestling terms, the roughly 327M Americans have access to exactly 18 medals at the start of the qualification process.  Likewise the 9M British citizens have the same access.

If the entire Olympic games were an open championships, with the entire depth of the U.S. Program included, such disproportionate representation would be more telling.

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7 hours ago, JHRoseWrestling said:

Comparing medal count per capita is a very poor metric, especially to cast doubt about doping.

Simply put, less populated countries have more access to medals per capita than those with higher populations.

To put it in wrestling terms, the roughly 327M Americans have access to exactly 18 medals at the start of the qualification process.  Likewise the 9M British citizens have the same access.

If the entire Olympic games were an open championships, with the entire depth of the U.S. Program included, such disproportionate representation would be more telling.

There are about 65 million people in the UK and their medal total was 3 shy of China

Edited by Plasmodium

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