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Zahid vs Brooks, how does it go down?

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Zahid my major in folk.  Zahid by tech in free.  Zahid is very very good... His only free losses recently domestically has been to Dake (world champ) and Ringer (top 5 arguably in world) at 79kg.  Sorry... Different level right now.  Keep in mind that Hall is a 2x junior world champ and Zahid handles him.

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16 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

Zahid my major in folk.  Zahid by tech in free.  Zahid is very very good... His only free losses recently domestically has been to Dake (world champ) and Ringer (top 5 arguably in world) at 79kg.  Sorry... Different level right now.  Keep in mind that Hall is a 2x junior world champ and Zahid handles him.

Handles him? Mark Hall beat him 5-0 and rode him for 3 and half minutes , then zahid won a one point match in the final that doesn’t qualify as “handling” someone.

Edited by Antitroll2828

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3 hours ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Handles him? Mark Hall beat him 5-0 and rode him for 3 and half minutes , then zahid won a one point match in the final that doesn’t qualify as “handling” someone.

See NCAA finals.

follow that up with their recent Freestyle match

zahid handles him

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4 hours ago, nyum said:

See NCAA finals.

follow that up with their recent Freestyle match

zahid handles him

I’ve seen the ncaa finals Mark Hall gets the first takedown and leads the whole first period then zahid gets a questionable takedown to tie it never the end of the second and wins 4-3...zahid scored 4 points total in 2 matches against hall last year maybe you should go back and watch 

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5 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

I’ve seen the ncaa finals Mark Hall gets the first takedown and leads the whole first period then zahid gets a questionable takedown to tie it never the end of the second and wins 4-3...zahid scored 4 points total in 2 matches against hall last year maybe you should go back and watch 

Again follow that up with their most recent freestyle match. 

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46 minutes ago, nyum said:

Again follow that up with their most recent freestyle match. 

I think if you assess that last freestyle match fairly, you come away with the following:

1. Zahid is and always has been a much bigger 174 pounds than Hall. Eventually you pay the piper for giving up that size advantage.

2. Hall looked really lethargic with a half-hearted high crotch that resulted in some easy points for Zahid.

3. Given 1 and 2 above, Zahid did not "handle" him. he managed the match and wrestled wisely. He should have given up a passivity point in the last 90 seconds. If you are "handling" someone, you don't have to back up for the last 1/4 of the match. You keep scoring and end the match. Zahid got a couple of easy go behinds and managed his lead.

But there is no sense arguing a definition of "handling". If they wrestle today, Zahid is a clear favorite. But I wouldn't bet the bank on the result. There isn't that much separation.

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And on the topic of Zahid and Brooks,  Zahid is a clearly a big favorite. But they wrestle the matches for a reason. I sat in the stands in Pittsburgh this March thinking I was going to see Vincenzo Joseph sew up his third title. We all know how that turned out. Now Valencia would be a much bigger favorite than Cenzo was over Mekhi, but it's V week. Survive and advance. You never know what will happen after the whistle blows.

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4 minutes ago, 82bordeaux said:

I think if you assess that last freestyle match fairly, you come away with the following:

1. Zahid is and always has been a much bigger 174 pounds than Hall. Eventually you pay the piper for giving up that size advantage.

2. Hall looked really lethargic with a half-hearted high crotch that resulted in some easy points for Zahid.

3. Given 1 and 2 above, Zahid did not "handle" him. he managed the match and wrestled wisely. He should have given up a passivity point in the last 90 seconds. If you are "handling" someone, you don't have to back up for the last 1/4 of the match. You keep scoring and end the match. Zahid got a couple of easy go behinds and managed his lead.

But there is no sense arguing a definition of "handling". If they wrestle today, Zahid is a clear favorite. But I wouldn't bet the bank on the result. There isn't that much separation.

Will they even wrestle again in the very near future? Hall would not ever seem big enough at 86Kg, and no way Zahid will ever be small enough to make 74Kg. The fact they will be at those two very different weights at the US Open shows what you are saying is correct in that Zahid is just a much larger guy than Hall. I think Hall is Zahid's equal as a wrestler, but he can't spot him that much size and weight advantage. 

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1 minute ago, TBar1977 said:

Will they even wrestle again in the very near future? Hall would not ever seem big enough at 86Kg, and no way Zahid will ever be small enough to make 74Kg. The fact they will be at those two very different weights at the US Open shows what you are saying is correct in that Zahid is just a much larger guy than Hall. I think Hall is Zahid's equal as a wrestler, but he can't spot him that much size and weight advantage. 

I think Hall's future is at 74kg. I don't think he has the size for 79kg at the senior level. Zahid is a monster at 79kg. He definitely could be a force on the world stage at 79kg. He's not there yet at 86kg, but he will be soon.

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13 hours ago, HokieHWT said:

You keep using that phrase but I’m not sure you know what it means.

Keep using what phrase?  Are you doubting how many times a 2 time champ lost to someone that never won before?  
 

There is wayyyyy to many to name.

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1 minute ago, 82bordeaux said:

I think Hall's future is at 74kg. I don't think he has the size for 79kg at the senior level. Zahid is a monster at 79kg. He definitely could be a force on the world stage at 79kg. He's not there yet at 86kg, but he will be soon.

MaybeZahid goes 86Kg this year, then drops to 79Kg for a couple years, then back to 86Kg to acclimate for the 2024 Olys. 

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1 hour ago, HokieHWT said:

Go for it. More than 10? 20? 30? 30 would be a lot.

I'm not going to name them all or do any research but some other big ones would be Owings over Gable and Nickal over Dean.  

 

Not sure how many but certainly more than 10.

Edited by Mokoma
Adding how many times I would guess.

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6 hours ago, 82bordeaux said:

I think if you assess that last freestyle match fairly, you come away with the following:

1. Zahid is and always has been a much bigger 174 pounds than Hall. Eventually you pay the piper for giving up that size advantage.

2. Hall looked really lethargic with a half-hearted high crotch that resulted in some easy points for Zahid.

3. Given 1 and 2 above, Zahid did not "handle" him. he managed the match and wrestled wisely. He should have given up a passivity point in the last 90 seconds. If you are "handling" someone, you don't have to back up for the last 1/4 of the match. You keep scoring and end the match. Zahid got a couple of easy go behinds and managed his lead.

But there is no sense arguing a definition of "handling". If they wrestle today, Zahid is a clear favorite. But I wouldn't bet the bank on the result. There isn't that much separation.

Talk about a twisted perspective. Those are two reasons Zahid did handle him.

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23 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

Venz wrestles with Labriola every day and I think they have similar skills and talents. Brooks beat Labriola 2x in freestyle, I think, and one may have been by TF. Brooks also has a 10-0 freestyle win with 4 TD's against Shane Griffith from the 2019 US Open. These results suggests Brooks is ready to beat a wrestler like Venz when they hit on the schedule.

 

So freestyle results over a different wrestler are worth more than actual results in folkstyle?  I have no doubt that Brooks will be good, but NOTHING I see below is indicative of Brooks being ready to beat Venz.  Plus, EVERY INDICATION, much like Hall, leads us to believe Brooks is substantially better in Freestyle.  Time will tell, but the results so far, in the style he will actually be wrestling while wearing a PSU singlet, are yet to indicate what you so readily imply.

2020 Season

VideoOpponentSchoolDateEventWeightW/LByHow

#47 Quatse, Jesse (5 - 4) (Compare)#36 Pennsylvania12/08Pennsylvania - Penn State Dual184WTF519 - 4 6:03

#35 Weiler, Chris (6 - 5) (Compare)#9 Lehigh12/06Penn State - Lehigh Dual184WDEC10 - 5

#197 Myers, Kyle (1 - 4) (Compare)#62 West Virginia12/01Mat-Town Open I184WFALL4:50

#107 McGill, Jared (2 - 2) (Compare)#12 Pittsburgh12/01Mat-Town Open I184WDEC11 - 5

#86 Inlander, Kyle (2 - 2) (Compare)#43 Bucknell12/01Mat-Town Open I184WDEC7 - 4

2019 Season

VideoOpponentSchoolDateEventWeightW/LByHow

#21 Christensen, Ryan (18 - 10)#18 Wisconsin12/29Midlands Championships174LDEC4 - 0

#13 Harvey, Ben (31 - 11)#23 Army12/29Midlands Championships174WDEC12 - 8

#23 Samuelson, Tate (24 - 9)#19 Wyoming11/10184WDEC8 - 4

#161 Ervin, Trevor (8 - 8)#51 Air Force11/10184WFALL0:57

Van dorn, CoreyNebraska-Kearney11/03184WFALL3:59

Ventura, ConnorColorado School Of Mines11/03184WTF518 - 3 5:13

#124 Wiederholt, Tyler (4 - 10)#51 Air Force11/03184WMD11 - 3

2018 Season

VideoOpponentSchoolDateEventWeightW/LByHow

#72 Siegrist, Jared (23 - 19)#19 Lock Haven12/29174WSV-16 - 4

#154 Inlander, Kyle (14 - 13)#64 Bucknell12/29174WMD18 - 9

#97 Stephani, Nick (12 - 16)#64 Bucknell12/29174WTF516 - 1 7:00

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19 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

So freestyle results over a different wrestler are worth more than actual results in folkstyle?  I have no doubt that Brooks will be good, but NOTHING I see below is indicative of Brooks being ready to beat Venz.  Plus, EVERY INDICATION, much like Hall, leads us to believe Brooks is substantially better in Freestyle.  Time will tell, but the results so far, in the style he will actually be wrestling while wearing a PSU singlet, are yet to indicate what you so readily imply.

2020 Season

VideoOpponentSchoolDateEventWeightW/LByHow

#47 Quatse, Jesse (5 - 4) (Compare)#36 Pennsylvania12/08Pennsylvania - Penn State Dual184WTF519 - 4 6:03

#35 Weiler, Chris (6 - 5) (Compare)#9 Lehigh12/06Penn State - Lehigh Dual184WDEC10 - 5

#197 Myers, Kyle (1 - 4) (Compare)#62 West Virginia12/01Mat-Town Open I184WFALL4:50

#107 McGill, Jared (2 - 2) (Compare)#12 Pittsburgh12/01Mat-Town Open I184WDEC11 - 5

#86 Inlander, Kyle (2 - 2) (Compare)#43 Bucknell12/01Mat-Town Open I184WDEC7 - 4

2019 Season

VideoOpponentSchoolDateEventWeightW/LByHow

#21 Christensen, Ryan (18 - 10)#18 Wisconsin12/29Midlands Championships174LDEC4 - 0

#13 Harvey, Ben (31 - 11)#23 Army12/29Midlands Championships174WDEC12 - 8

#23 Samuelson, Tate (24 - 9)#19 Wyoming11/10184WDEC8 - 4

#161 Ervin, Trevor (8 - 8)#51 Air Force11/10184WFALL0:57

Van dorn, CoreyNebraska-Kearney11/03184WFALL3:59

Ventura, ConnorColorado School Of Mines11/03184WTF518 - 3 5:13

#124 Wiederholt, Tyler (4 - 10)#51 Air Force11/03184WMD11 - 3

2018 Season

VideoOpponentSchoolDateEventWeightW/LByHow

#72 Siegrist, Jared (23 - 19)#19 Lock Haven12/29174WSV-16 - 4

#154 Inlander, Kyle (14 - 13)#64 Bucknell12/29174WMD18 - 9

#97 Stephani, Nick (12 - 16)#64 Bucknell12/29174WTF516 - 1 7:00

As an 18 year old who was training only freestyle at the otc went to a tournament and beat Samuelson a NQ and Ben Harvey a multiple time national qualifier who beat McFadden last year and made the R12 then lost a 5th year senior who rode him and this year he’s beaten everyone handily and venz has like 4 loses and is below hidley...2 years ago hidley wasn’t close to the same level as brooks and I haven’t seen anything that suggests he passed him up 

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38 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

So freestyle results over a different wrestler are worth more than actual results in folkstyle?  I have no doubt that Brooks will be good, but NOTHING I see below is indicative of Brooks being ready to beat Venz.  Plus, EVERY INDICATION, much like Hall, leads us to believe Brooks is substantially better in Freestyle.  Time will tell, but the results so far, in the style he will actually be wrestling while wearing a PSU singlet, are yet to indicate what you so readily imply.

2020 Season

VideoOpponentSchoolDateEventWeightW/LByHow

#47 Quatse, Jesse (5 - 4) (Compare)#36 Pennsylvania12/08Pennsylvania - Penn State Dual184WTF519 - 4 6:03

#35 Weiler, Chris (6 - 5) (Compare)#9 Lehigh12/06Penn State - Lehigh Dual184WDEC10 - 5

#197 Myers, Kyle (1 - 4) (Compare)#62 West Virginia12/01Mat-Town Open I184WFALL4:50

#107 McGill, Jared (2 - 2) (Compare)#12 Pittsburgh12/01Mat-Town Open I184WDEC11 - 5

#86 Inlander, Kyle (2 - 2) (Compare)#43 Bucknell12/01Mat-Town Open I184WDEC7 - 4

2019 Season

VideoOpponentSchoolDateEventWeightW/LByHow

#21 Christensen, Ryan (18 - 10)#18 Wisconsin12/29Midlands Championships174LDEC4 - 0

#13 Harvey, Ben (31 - 11)#23 Army12/29Midlands Championships174WDEC12 - 8

#23 Samuelson, Tate (24 - 9)#19 Wyoming11/10184WDEC8 - 4

#161 Ervin, Trevor (8 - 8)#51 Air Force11/10184WFALL0:57

Van dorn, CoreyNebraska-Kearney11/03184WFALL3:59

Ventura, ConnorColorado School Of Mines11/03184WTF518 - 3 5:13

#124 Wiederholt, Tyler (4 - 10)#51 Air Force11/03184WMD11 - 3

2018 Season

VideoOpponentSchoolDateEventWeightW/LByHow

#72 Siegrist, Jared (23 - 19)#19 Lock Haven12/29174WSV-16 - 4

#154 Inlander, Kyle (14 - 13)#64 Bucknell12/29174WMD18 - 9

#97 Stephani, Nick (12 - 16)#64 Bucknell12/29174WTF516 - 1 7:00

The problem with all of this documentation, while these are indeed facts they lack context. If no one knew a damn thing about either of them and just watched their last many matches in either or both styles they'd probably think Brooks is the better wrestler. 

I don't go just by the things you wrote. Never have. I once suggested to one ranker something like "Why don't you just rank guys based on what you truly believe"? I got the whole speech about "Wrestler A has to beat Wrestler B yada yada yada" I said, we are talking about Kyle Snyder and J'Den Cox. They were first year starters at the time, but I said "You have eyes, you see what they are doing, why don't you just put them at or near the top. You know that's where they belong". Got the speech again.

Now, your comment here isn't about rankings, its about whether Brooks can beat Taylor Vens. The eyeball test says he can beat him. That's what I'm going with. 

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