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NJDan

Does an ORS help?

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I guess there is a bit of a dispute about who should be eligible for an Olympic redshirt. But is there any proof that an ORS helps those who are taking them. 

JB won a world gold coming off a college season as did Snyder. Did John Smith take an ORS back in his day? Spencer Lee is not taking one. Are there good examples of guys who really benefitted from taking an ORS? I mean benefited by making the Olympic team as opposed to benefitting in college competition from getting an additional redshirt.

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2 minutes ago, NJDan said:

I guess there is a bit of a dispute about who should be eligible for an Olympic redshirt. But is there any proof that an ORS helps those who are taking them. 

JB won a world gold coming off a college season as did Snyder. Did John Smith take an ORS back in his day? Spencer Lee is not taking one. Are there good examples of guys who really benefitted from taking an ORS? I mean benefited by making the Olympic team as opposed to benefitting in college competition from getting an additional redshirt.

There's cases like you suggest, there's case where an ORS was beneficial, there's cases where it wasn't.  There's no blanket answer, its going to be different experience, use of, and results from for each individual.  At the end of the day its a decision to be made by the student.  I don't think it is 'hurting wrestling', in the big scheme of things, in any way.  How much it may benefit wrestling as a whole, I don't know, and I'm sure it can be very debatable.  For example on the other thread someone stated how 18-19 year old freshman can be competing against 24 year olds because of redshirts.  That may be true.  The flip side of that is the number of athletes that have legitimate shot at AA/Champ this year, a "one shot to get it" type scenario because of those athletes taking the ORS...... just one thought.

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26 minutes ago, Lurker said:

There's cases like you suggest, there's case where an ORS was beneficial, there's cases where it wasn't.  There's no blanket answer, its going to be different experience, use of, and results from for each individual.  At the end of the day its a decision to be made by the student.  I don't think it is 'hurting wrestling', in the big scheme of things, in any way.  How much it may benefit wrestling as a whole, I don't know, and I'm sure it can be very debatable.  For example on the other thread someone stated how 18-19 year old freshman can be competing against 24 year olds because of redshirts.  That may be true.  The flip side of that is the number of athletes that have legitimate shot at AA/Champ this year, a "one shot to get it" type scenario because of those athletes taking the ORS...... just one thought.

I am too lazy to do the research, but I think this question can be answered. How many ORS wrestlers wound up making the team. I would guess that the number is pretty low because not college guys (ORS or otherwise) make the team. Snyder did it, but without an ORS. Cael and Gable did not do it. Neither did either Schultz brother.  John Smith, I believe, won Olympic gold while still in college, but I don't know if he took an ORS or if one was even available at at that time.

Has anyone made an Olympic team coming off an ORS? Has anyone medaled coming off an ORS?

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1 hour ago, NJDan said:

I am too lazy to do the research, but I think this question can be answered. How many ORS wrestlers wound up making the team. I would guess that the number is pretty low because not college guys (ORS or otherwise) make the team. Snyder did it, but without an ORS. Cael and Gable did not do it. Neither did either Schultz brother.  John Smith, I believe, won Olympic gold while still in college, but I don't know if he took an ORS or if one was even available at at that time.

Has anyone made an Olympic team coming off an ORS? Has anyone medaled coming off an ORS?

But is that the ONLY way to determine if an ORS is beneficial?  I think that's the big misconception, the ORS is only worth taking if you make the team.  I strongly disagree with that.

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2 hours ago, Lurker said:

But is that the ONLY way to determine if an ORS is beneficial?  I think that's the big misconception, the ORS is only worth taking if you make the team.  I strongly disagree with that.

Yes, I meant is it helpful for making the team and helping the US win medals. Others may be helped by getting an extra redshirt year and helping their college team. But I don't think that giving guys a leg up on the college competition is the purpose of the program.

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4 minutes ago, NJDan said:

Yes, I meant is it helpful for making the team and helping the US win medals. Others may be helped by getting an extra redshirt year and helping their college team. But I don't think that giving guys a leg up on the college competition is the purpose of the program.

We can agree on that. Of course it’s not the purpose of the program. 

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4 hours ago, NJDan said:

I am too lazy to do the research, but I think this question can be answered. How many ORS wrestlers wound up making the team. I would guess that the number is pretty low because not college guys (ORS or otherwise) make the team. Snyder did it, but without an ORS. Cael and Gable did not do it. Neither did either Schultz brother.  John Smith, I believe, won Olympic gold while still in college, but I don't know if he took an ORS or if one was even available at at that time.

Has anyone made an Olympic team coming off an ORS? Has anyone medaled coming off an ORS?

Barry Davis made the Olympic Team in 1984 after RS and took silver. 

Edited by lu1979

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4 hours ago, Lurker said:

But is that the ONLY way to determine if an ORS is beneficial?  I think that's the big misconception, the ORS is only worth taking if you make the team.  I strongly disagree with that.

But isn’t the point of an ORS to make the team? If not it’s just being abused to enhance a college career.

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50 minutes ago, HokieHWT said:

But isn’t the point of an ORS to make the team? If not it’s just being abused to enhance a college career.

The point of the ORS is for those that qualify to have the opportunity to train and focus on making the Olympic qualifier. In the bigger picture the purpose is to further the development and potential of our  Olympic hopeful athletes, and thereby improving the overall competitive status of our Olympic teams. The point of the ors is not to take each individual on a case to case basis and evaluate what their likelihood of making this Olympic team. 

Overall, big picture, the ORS is a very positive program. Small picture, individual case by individual case, sure you can make an argument against this one or that one. Is that what we want to focus on here? The worst case scenario that comes with a kid, who has qualified for, taking an ORS?  To each their own. 

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12 hours ago, HokieHWT said:

But isn’t the point of an ORS to make the team? If not it’s just being abused to enhance a college career.

Maybe the point of an ORS isn't about any one wrestler making the team.  Maybe it's about making the TEAM stronger.

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19 minutes ago, red blades said:

Maybe the point of an ORS isn't about any one wrestler making the team.  Maybe it's about making the TEAM stronger.

You only make the team stronger if you make the team. If you take an ORS and don't make the team, the ORS did nothing for the team. It might have helped the individual succeed in later college competitions. But that's not the point of the ORS program.

I am not saying that those who are eligible are wrong to take advantage of the ORS. They are helping themselves. They are not cheating. But it does seem that (Barry Davis excepted) there are few, if any, examples of wrestlers taking an ORS and then making the team (let alone improving the team). There are a few college wrestlers who made the team, but most did so without an ORS. To me, there is not much evidence that the ORS helps Team USA, especially considering the number of guys who take the ORS. 

 

Edited by NJDan

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7 minutes ago, jchapman said:

Garrett Lowney took an Oly RS and made the US team, then won Bronze.

https://www.wwca.org/page/show/1507304-garrett-lowney

According to this, Lowney made the greco team after an ORS in 2000 and won bronze. But then he completed college and made another team in 2004. So this is a second example (if you count greco). It's not clear though whether he was taking an ORS at the same time as he could have been taking a regular redshirt. It may be that an ORS is more helpful in greco since wrestling in college is poor training for greco, but good training for freestyle.

 

Edited by NJDan

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57 minutes ago, NJDan said:

https://www.wwca.org/page/show/1507304-garrett-lowney

According to this, Lowney made the greco team after an ORS in 2000 and won bronze. But then he completed college and made another team in 2004. So this is a second example (if you count greco). It's not clear though whether he was taking an ORS at the same time as he could have been taking a regular redshirt. It may be that an ORS is more helpful in greco since wrestling in college is poor training for greco, but good training for freestyle.

 

I believe Lowney took a redshirt for the 1998-1999 season, then Oly shirted the 1999-2000 season, then got screwed by the Big Ten and wasn't eligible until Spring semester of 2001, when he took 3rd at NCAAs.

I think Brandon Paulson took an Oly shirt in 1996 when he won Silver, but I am not 100% sure.

Edited by jchapman

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@NJDan, I think where we differ is you are looking more at the small picture, case/year by case/year.  You are of the position that if a kid does not have much of a chance to make the olympic team then he shouldn't take it and there is no benefit to Team USA.  I would agree Finesilver taking his ORS is probably not going to benefit the 2020 olympic team that much.  My position is that of the over time benefit.  This program allows our student-athletes more development, a focus and development they otherwise wouldn't get without the ORS program.  That benefits our nation of wrestling, as a whole, over time.  I believe that long term "pro", among other pros, is well worth the short term "con" of that athlete having one later year of NCAA eligibility. And again, while it gives that athlete a year of eligibility at one year later age, that ORS year also opens up a starting spot/AA spot/NCAA title opportunity for someone else.  I think the pros way outweigh the cons, because for the most part the pros lend toward long term competitive stability of our national team.

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

@NJDan, I think where we differ is you are looking more at the small picture, case/year by case/year.  You are of the position that if a kid does not have much of a chance to make the olympic team then he shouldn't take it and there is no benefit to Team USA.  I would agree Finesilver taking his ORS is probably not going to benefit the 2020 olympic team that much.  My position is that of the over time benefit.  This program allows our student-athletes more development, a focus and development they otherwise wouldn't get without the ORS program.  That benefits our nation of wrestling, as a whole, over time.  I believe that long term "pro", among other pros, is well worth the short term "con" of that athlete having one later year of NCAA eligibility. And again, while it gives that athlete a year of eligibility at one year later age, that ORS year also opens up a starting spot/AA spot/NCAA title opportunity for someone else.  I think the pros way outweigh the cons, because for the most part the pros lend toward long term competitive stability of our national team.

It's a fair point. But if you are right, why not allow everyone to RS at any time they want to train in freestyle, such as for the World Championships, and why not open it up to everyone? The more people we have wrestling freestyle, the better we get in some general sense. But the ORS is limited to those whose achievements give them some kind of chance at making the team. So it does seem to me that that is the point of the program. Anyone is free to train freestyle whenever they want. The question is whether they should be allowed to extend their eligibility while doing so. That's a much closer call.

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7 minutes ago, NJDan said:

It's a fair point. But if you are right, why not allow everyone to RS at any time they want to train in freestyle, such as for the World Championships, and why not open it up to everyone? The more people we have wrestling freestyle, the better we get in some general sense. But the ORS is limited to those whose achievements give them some kind of chance at making the team. So it does seem to me that that is the point of the program. Anyone is free to train freestyle whenever they want. The question is whether they should be allowed to extend their eligibility while doing so. That's a much closer call.

Obviously just opening it up to anyone is not at all realistic.  Shrinking the criteria to qualify for an ORS a little bit, I can see that.  But, you can't deem the qualification on what is this individuals chances of making the team this year, that opens up a whole can of worms, as does anything when decisions are based on judgement and not set criteria.

So I'm getting that your #1 problem with the ORS is that it makes the athletes last year of eligibility one year later, therefore giving them an advantage over the rest of the field?

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16 hours ago, HokieHWT said:

But isn’t the point of an ORS to make the team? If not it’s just being abused to enhance a college career.

100%.

The majority of ORS guys have zero chance at making the team.  They just want an extra year.  The NCAA should get rid of all RSs of all type and just give guys 5 years to compete in 4 post seasons.  

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20 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Obviously just opening it up to anyone is not at all realistic.  Shrinking the criteria to qualify for an ORS a little bit, I can see that.  But, you can't deem the qualification on what is this individuals chances of making the team this year, that opens up a whole can of worms, as does anything when decisions are based on judgement and not set criteria.

So I'm getting that your #1 problem with the ORS is that it makes the athletes last year of eligibility one year later, therefore giving them an advantage over the rest of the field?

I don't really have a problem. I was just wondering if the ORS really does any good-- seems like it may do a tiny bit, but not much. If that's the case, I am sympathetic to the problem others have in that it gives the ORS guys, who are already at the top of the food chain, another advantage. So I guess that is a problem, but not a huge one in the scheme of things. But since I am Cornell fan, I hope the advantage proves out in this one case.

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