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TBar1977

Midlands Day 1 Thread

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Just now, LJB said:

one simple step out rule solves all this silliness...

why anyone would be against anything that promotes wrestling instead of not-wrestling makes no sense to me...

LJB.... I wholeheartedly agree with you for once ha. NCAA needs a step out rule in a serious way. Cheers, friend. 

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I wholeheartedly agree with points made above and believe that:

1.  The Glosser-O'Connor calls were correct, the ref got them exactly right.  Sincere props to Glosser, he wrestled a great match, but the rules were applied the way they are supposed to be.

2.  The excellent work of this ref in this match is not the norm.  Inconsistent is a diplomatic term for it; a less diplomatic way to put it is that many if not most refs just don't make the correct calls, which deters action and hurts the sport generally.

3.  Back to being a little more diplomatic, I think that it's also true that the failures of many refs are due to the subjectivity of the rules.  In saying this I conclude that they can send memos and instructional videos till the cows come home and it won't help.  This is what freestyle has gotten right with the objective pushout rule, which, as proven yet again last weekend in Texas, produces generally more exciting neutral wrestling.  I strongly support adding this rule in college.  That doesn't mean they have to add any other freestyle rules.  (I think that criteria helps action in freestyle, but understand folkstyle advocates' disdain for this and don't think it's necessary.)  

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8 minutes ago, GockeS said:

i wouldn't be opposed to the step out if they still allowed mat wrestling to occur with just a toe in the cylinder.

none of this free/greco stoppage b/c a head touches out of bounds.

why would you need wrestling to continue that far out of bounds?

why could you not incentivize wrestling inside the field of play?

if you can't run to the edge for safety why would you?

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1 minute ago, LJB said:

if you can't run to the edge for safety why would you?

if they call you out of bounds when you are on your back or going to your back

, then yes you can still run for saftey.

 

 

2 minutes ago, LJB said:

why would you need wrestling to continue that far out of bounds?

like i said, i dont mind a step out... in neutral

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2 minutes ago, GockeS said:

if they call you out of bounds when you are on your back or going to your back

, then yes you can still run for saftey.

 

 

like i said, i dont mind a step out... in neutral

you do realize in the real styles if you crawl out of bounds while in danger (on your back) you are called for a caution and 2 and then restarted in the center in par terre...

point being, you are still penalized for running...

step out rule solves all of this...

don't want to wrestle?

you get penalized...

it really is that easy and objective...

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5 minutes ago, GockeS said:

i can't count how many times i saw guys being turned on the boundary and the action stopped... this past week in dallas

garbage.

the guys who went out of bounds were not penalized.

lame...

cite a specific example...

the rest is silliness...

you can't wrestle inside of a mat with a 32' diameter?

 

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5 minutes ago, LJB said:

one simple step out rule solves all this silliness...

why anyone would be against anything that promotes wrestling instead of not-wrestling makes no sense to me...

I am not a fan of step out in folk style because mat wrestling makes it even more crazy and complex to call.  In freestyle you don’t have stand ups.  So, if I want to score a point on top, I would drop to a leg, bring it up and push my opponent out of bounds while on one foot.  Also, you can get a step out by just staying behind and pushing the guy out.

to bring push outs to folk style, you would need to take away mat wrestling...basically make it freestyle.  
 

I know some will say, “just Jane that rule in neutral!”  But it is another thing for incompetent referees to keep track of.  I used to be a referee.  I quit because half of them were old fat farts who could care less about calling a match correctly and complain about getting paid too little.  Weird because I made a sizable sum refereeing for the two seasons I did it as a non-volunteer (NY is “unionized” and doesn’t like volunteers taking a paid day away from another guy).  I even had a referee say to me, “hey, that guy that was pinned in the match you called was ranked and the other guy was a nobody.”  The great thing about that is I could ignore them...and coaches, because I could care less if I was voted to ref the state tournament.   
 

the worst is when an old fat fart referee talks about “breaking even” every year due to gas, uniform and meal expenses.   Maybe your first year buying everything, but if you are losing money refereeing, you are a dolt.  Also, I never met a referee who didn’t take advantage of the hospitality room with the gourmet pot luck.  
  
I didn't mind coaches yelling at me.  It’s their job and keeps the ref honest.  I was a coach for three years (NJ, CA, AR) before I went referee.  I just couldn’t dedicate the time to coaching.  
 

as far as stalling goes, I was brutal calling it.  You back out of bounds in the first 10 seconds with a 0-0 score, BANG!  And this was 2010-2014.  You rode legs with the wrestlers hop off the mat parallel, i stalemated then warning then stall.  of one move doesn’t work for 15-20 seconds, you need to get to the side and work another move.  
 

I really hated it when referees talk about being human and we shouldn’t expect them to get every call right.  Slippery slope.  You are a paid professional.  I saw that there were many who strove for excellence, then there were some really good ones but too theatric.  Referees shouldn’t be in any spotlight.  Then there are the ones looking for a paycheck and don’t give a crap.  They just rest on the many years they were a referee like that means they know something.  I had a referee friend of mine call pins in HS for ONE SECOND touches.  I said, “hey man, how many seconds do you count for a fall?”  He said, “one...it’s one second.”  I said, “no, it’s two.”  He looked at the manual he had in his back pocket and said “sonofabitch.”  This guy reffed for over 30 years.  However, he was the head FS and GR referee for the state.  
 

don’t get me wrong.  There are good referees.  Really good ones.  But complacency and DGAF attitudes from the few bad ones made me not want to share that company anymore.  
 

wow, I went off topic.  But now you have a perspective from a former referee who doesn’t like referees.  I guess I am like a KGB agent who defected to the US.  

 

 

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Most inconsistent call in any tournament:  stopping action out of bounds when feet are still in.  Saw a guy cradled with the cradler having a foot in bounds (knee was on the line) and the ref stopped it as OOB.  The wrestler motioned to his foot and the ref just shrugged his shoulders.  
 

other inconsistency:  stalemates called fast in the third period during scrambles to give a wrestler a chance.  As a ref, you have to ask yourself “would I call this a stalemate in the first with a 0-0 score?”

judo is safe from being canned in the olympics, why? Because if you back up or put your hips back in the standing position, they call stalling.  It could be 10 seconds into the match.  Protecting a lead is NOT criteria.  Unwillingness to engage the combatant is the criteria.  
 

you start banging people for stalling when they meet THAT criteria, then you will see a change in wrestling.  

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33 minutes ago, LJB said:

why would you need wrestling to continue that far out of bounds?

why could you not incentivize wrestling inside the field of play?

if you can't run to the edge for safety why would you?

Heavyweights would love this when on top.  Run the guy out of bounds for an easy 1.  

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55 minutes ago, LJB said:

fat kids can't circle?

not a very PC stance in this day and age...

Hahaha.  I said top/bottom.  The bottom guy stands up and you run them out of bounds.  Hard to circle when a freight train is behind you.  
 

let’s be real, you hardly see heavyweights turning guys.  And only about three HWTs in the nation can do a standing dunk leg roll.  You can try but it didn’t work for Miller when he did that and Penola literally sat on him for a defensive pin.  
 

it’s science 

Edited by Cptafw164

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7 hours ago, GockeS said:

i can't count how many times i saw guys being turned on the boundary and the action stopped... this past week in dallas

garbage.

the guys who went out of bounds were not penalized.

This happened during Spencer's tech fall of Vito.  If not for a head touching out of bounds and the match stopping the tech fall would have happened much earlier.  

I agree, with you GockeS, on the out of bounds ruining good wrestling.  Unless there is danger for either of the wrestlers, action should continue as long as there is a toe or anything still in bounds.

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9 hours ago, russelscout said:

Ok.... mental note: dont try to have an honest discussion with Tbar about anything.

Why should I engage you in a long discussion about stalling based on Glosser getting called for it? Your fan base loves stalling and wants it called on nearly every wrestler who is leading a hawkeye on the scoreboard. You are hardly going to ever be objective about stalling and your knee jerk reaction to the call in the O Connor - Glosser match is evidence of such. 

I have been down this rabbit hole before. Not really worth the aggravation other than to point out the hypocrisy.

 

Edited by TBar1977

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9 hours ago, LJB said:

lame...

cite a specific example...

the rest is silliness...

you can't wrestle inside of a mat with a 32' diameter?

 

lee turning someone who's head touched out of bounds... action was stopped.

 

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9 hours ago, LJB said:

lame...

cite a specific example...

the rest is silliness...

you can't wrestle inside of a mat with a 32' diameter?

 

whats lame is guys still circumvent the rule do you need a dictionary?) by going to their knees in neutral.

they are still running, but aren't penalized b/c they go to a knee.

stalling still happens in those 'real' styles... surprised you put up with it.

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Day 2 Midlands questions 

1. Definitive answers to the absences of Mueller, Deakin, small Elam

2. How many podium teams from this tournament finish Top 10 at Nationals? 1,2,3, or all 4?

3. When Campbell finishes Top 10 again, will the SoCons conference profile rise?

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