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Nushy

Illegal Maneuver Question

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24 minutes ago, Nushy said:

I appreciate your response, and yes I’m aware of the situation where the FHSAA overruled a referee’s call- the attorney who represented that athlete is also representing my son. The sectional appeals committee apologized to the athlete who was found not guilty of unsportsmanlike conduct. Does that get back lost time? Lost opportunity? No. 

The executive director absolutely has the authority to view a petition before it reaches sectional appeals as stated in the by-laws AND preponderance of the evidence must be the deciding factor. 


He missed 5 matches the day the DQ was called which doesn’t count as a point, 8 matches at the next 2-day dual tournament 2 points,  1 match for a dual meet (1point), 8 matches at a 2-day dual (2 points), 1 match for a dual this evening (1 point) and at least 6 matches for a dual tournament this weekend (2points). If I’m not mistaken that is over 25 missed matches. 

The way that sectional appeals works- we would have to have requested a hearing by December 13th to be heard in January. The incident occurred December 14th so that puts his hearing out until February unless the school agrees to pay for an emergency appeal - if you can get one. 

The reason I went further than my initial question was because someone asked. My initial question was vague because I knew everyone would want to weigh in with their opinion. 

Gotcha. I mean there's vague....and then there's a whole different topic.  (asking if a move is illegal vs blasting the FHSAA for not hearing your appeal immediately). But I'll digress on that one.

 Just to clear up a couple things the principle can request the ED to mediate the appeals committee, but theres no guarantee that request will be granted, and your posts are saying that since they won't do it by your phone call and you have to instead follow the procedures, they will never do anything to hold anyone accountable.  See what I'm saying?  And also they won't over rule the officials call (they didn't in the case I wrote about.  They were given evidence by a local news station that showed the words the ref heard did not come from the player in question's mouth, therefore they overturned the suspension)

Good luck hope it works out. But if he had teeth marks on both sides, and the official in charge testifies to that, just be prepared for the worst.  Maybe testimony from the opponent/coach will help in getting it reduced.

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As stated in my previous post, we submitted a letter from the opposing coach and athlete stating that they don’t feel that the teeth marks were an intentional bite, along with photos and video showing the kid driving his arm into my son’s open mouth (preponderance of the evidence).
We did follow procedure. The ref wrote up a report, the FHSAA issued a suspension, the next day our school filed a petition with the above mentioned evidence and the executive director’s assistant upheld the suspension. We then hired an attorney who requested, in behalf of the school, that the ED himself review the case. Now we are waiting for a sectional appeals hearing. The problem is, everyone shuts down for the holidays so there has been no rush by the FHSAA to resolve. Wrestling IS over the holidays so I guess we are just SOL. 
Bottom line is, they have some major flaws in their appeals process. I feel for the athletes who don’t have the means or knowledge to go up against the FHSAA. I was originally told by the school that after the petition there was nothing we could do- they weren’t even aware of a sectional appeals. We have a new athletic director and principal who haven’t had the pleasure of dealing with the FHSAA. The FHSAA governs the officials who call major violations, then an officer of the  FHSAA rules on the petition issued by the school. It should be an independent party with no ties to officials. IMO it’s a major conflict of interest. 

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6 minutes ago, Nushy said:

As stated in my previous post, we submitted a letter from the opposing coach and athlete stating that they don’t feel that the teeth marks were an intentional bite, along with photos and video showing the kid driving his arm into my son’s open mouth (preponderance of the evidence).
We did follow procedure. The ref wrote up a report, the FHSAA issued a suspension, the next day our school filed a petition with the above mentioned evidence and the executive director’s assistant upheld the suspension. We then hired an attorney who requested, in behalf of the school, that the ED himself review the case. Now we are waiting for a sectional appeals hearing. The problem is, everyone shuts down for the holidays so there has been no rush by the FHSAA to resolve. Wrestling IS over the holidays so I guess we are just SOL. 
Bottom line is, they have some major flaws in their appeals process. I feel for the athletes who don’t have the means or knowledge to go up against the FHSAA. I was originally told by the school that after the petition there was nothing we could do- they weren’t even aware of a sectional appeals. We have a new athletic director and principal who haven’t had the pleasure of dealing with the FHSAA. The FHSAA governs the officials who call major violations, then an officer of the  FHSAA rules on the petition issued by the school. It should be an independent party with no ties to officials. IMO it’s a major conflict of interest. 

Fair enough.  It's an opinion.  

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Let me lead off by saying that I obviously have no knowledge other than what you set forth here and have no opinion on the intent.

However, unless you took photos AS the ref was looking at the arm or possibly later if the ref was suggesting that the skin was torn, the photos are meaningless. We're talking about some indentations in the skin that would likely disappear within a minute or so if not a few seconds. The opinion of the other coach means nothing here.

The rationale with checking for two sets of teeth indentations is that if it's the result of a cross-face it's highly probably the pressure puts it mainly against the uppers or lowers, not both. Both implies that there was biting. I wouldn't argue that it could be a gag response but it's still biting. I believe the rules people years ago decided that it would be extremely rare to see two sets of teeth that were not the result of a bite. I would also add that it's likely the ref wasn't right out front with a clear view of the cross-face at the time. Could be his fault as to the legality of the crossface but since it's also possible that the crossface was initially legal and the bottom guys head moved causing the arm to go into the mouth (again not suggesting that happened here just showing why the rules are what they are) with him looking at other things going on. They needed a way to decide this without a direct view.

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Exactly! Flawed system. If a call as severe as biting is made, the ref should be required to take photos and document the injury. I took a photo of the other wrestlers arm but it was 3 hours later (unfortunately, I wasn’t there when it happened and didn’t think to do it until I spoke with the opposing coach who said he thought it was an unfortunate call and that he didn’t think it was an intentional bite). We have never encountered anything like this before so we didn’t really know what to do. There was no broken skin, no individual teeth marks, just a small red line that looked like the tooth had scraped the arm due to forced motion. Never in a million years did I ever think he would be suspended for 8 points, totaling over 25 matches. 

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23 minutes ago, Nushy said:

@Lurker 4 matches at the duel today so that will be closer to 30 matches missed. 

So then that weigh in counts for 2 points instead of one. Why did he miss five matches on the day of the incident?

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1 hour ago, Nushy said:

Exactly! Flawed system. If a call as severe as biting is made, the ref should be required to take photos and document the injury. I took a photo of the other wrestlers arm but it was 3 hours later (unfortunately, I wasn’t there when it happened and didn’t think to do it until I spoke with the opposing coach who said he thought it was an unfortunate call and that he didn’t think it was an intentional bite). We have never encountered anything like this before so we didn’t really know what to do. There was no broken skin, no individual teeth marks, just a small red line that looked like the tooth had scraped the arm due to forced motion. Never in a million years did I ever think he would be suspended for 8 points, totaling over 25 matches. 

It’s a flawed system because the official didnt whip out a camera and take pictures?  I’m really sorry here man but you are making a whole lot of big picture claims based solely on your sons incident. I’m sorry but I’ve been involved in this situation numerous numerous times, as an athlete, Coach, and official. Bite marks don’t happen on both sides of the arm from just  an open month cross face, there has to be a clamp. And they don’t always break skin. I mean I could bite my arm right now and send you a picture with teeth marks but no broken skin. Officials aren’t out there to screw kids over. If the ref DQ’d the boy, he saw a situation where he felt it was warranted. Now I do feel like 8 points is too stiff a penalty, but at the end of the day, based on everything you’ve said in this thread, the right call was made on the mat. You really need to not make any complaint about the call whatsoever, and solely on the procedure results.  You also have to ask yourself as a parent....it is possible your son didn’t like the cross face, and did in fact clamp down....even if just a little bit??  You’re really coming off as someone who feels like everyone (the officials, the FHSAA, the posters on here who are familiar with this kind of situation) are wrong. Doesn’t that say anything?

Seriously though don’t want to rain on you and certainly don’t want to see any kid miss that many matches. I truly hope they at least reduce it. Honestly I don’t think the situation as you recall it warrants anywhere near that level of suspension. So I hope it works out. Do you mind telling me what school? I’d like to follow it. 

Edited by Lurker

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49 minutes ago, Lurker said:

So then that weigh in counts for 2 points instead of one. Why did he miss five matches on the day of the incident?

A one day duel only counts as 1 point. The initial incident was the second day of a tournament, 1st match of the day. He is 145 it’s a stacked weight class in our district. 

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48 minutes ago, Lurker said:

It’s a flawed system because the official didnt whip out a camera and take pictures?  I’m really sorry here man but you are making a whole lot of big picture claims based solely on your sons incident. I’m sorry but I’ve been involved in this situation numerous numerous times, as an athlete, Coach, and official. Bite marks don’t happen on both sides of the arm from just  an open month cross face, there has to be a clamp. And they don’t always break skin. I mean I could bite my arm right now and send you a picture with teeth marks but no broken skin. Officials aren’t out there to screw kids over. If the ref DQ’d the boy, he saw a situation where he felt it was warranted. Now I do feel like 8 points is too stiff a penalty, but at the end of the day, based on everything you’ve said in this thread, the right call was made on the mat. You really need to not make any complaint about the call whatsoever, and solely on the procedure results.  You also have to ask yourself as a parent....it is possible your son didn’t like the cross face, and did in fact clamp down....even if just a little bit??  You’re really coming off as someone who feels like everyone (the officials, the FHSAA, the posters on here who are familiar with this kind of situation) are wrong. Doesn’t that say anything?

Seriously though don’t want to rain on you and certainly don’t want to see any kid miss that many matches. I truly hope they at least reduce it. Honestly I don’t think the situation as you recall it warrants anywhere near that level of suspension. So I hope it works out. Do you mind telling me what school? I’d like to follow it. 

I just think they need to review a call this serious on a case-by-case basis if a kid is going to miss close to 30 matches. The suspension for biting is flagrant misconduct. Period. They don’t take into account the situation, maneuver or severity. If it was an actual malicious bite, then yes 8 points is definitely warranted maybe even the remainder of the season. When it’s something like an open mouth crossface I think they should look at all the evidence which they didn’t. Believe me, the most important characteristic I think a person can possess is accountability and I teach my kids this everyday. I’m not saying there weren’t teeth marks after the initial crossface. Put your forearm over your open mouth and pull back as hard as you can for 6-7 seconds and I think you will find teeth imprints. The rule needs clarification. 
This whole situation has been so frustrating as a parent. There really is no where to find answers unless you read the bylaws, rules, etc. I thought I could at least get some answers from unbiased people on this forum. Knowledge is power. Thank you for your input. 

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53 minutes ago, Nushy said:

A one day duel only counts as 1 point. The initial incident was the second day of a tournament, 1st match of the day. He is 145 it’s a stacked weight class in our district. 

One match dual is worth one point. Anything over one match is worth 2

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43 minutes ago, Nushy said:

I just think they need to review a call this serious on a case-by-case basis if a kid is going to miss close to 30 matches. The suspension for biting is flagrant misconduct. Period. They don’t take into account the situation, maneuver or severity. If it was an actual malicious bite, then yes 8 points is definitely warranted maybe even the remainder of the season. When it’s something like an open mouth crossface I think they should look at all the evidence which they didn’t. Believe me, the most important characteristic I think a person can possess is accountability and I teach my kids this everyday. I’m not saying there weren’t teeth marks after the initial crossface. Put your forearm over your open mouth and pull back as hard as you can for 6-7 seconds and I think you will find teeth imprints. The rule needs clarification. 
This whole situation has been so frustrating as a parent. There really is no where to find answers unless you read the bylaws, rules, etc. I thought I could at least get some answers from unbiased people on this forum. Knowledge is power. Thank you for your input. 

I hope you can see you are getting unbiased input in this thread. Best of luck my friend. And I really would like to follow it. 

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2 hours ago, Lurker said:

I hope you can see you are getting unbiased input in this thread. Best of luck my friend. And I really would like to follow it. 

I do. It has been very helpful. Thank you to you and everyone who has taken the time to comment. I will update once I find out more information. 

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Maybe the bigger problem is Florida wrestles too many matches.  What is this a 2 week period or something and you could miss 30 matches?  Sheesh, I guess that’s one good thing that could come from all the college coaches limiting competitions if it influences HS’s to do similar.

Edited by 1032004

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as it appears not every state recognizes the NFHS 5-match rule, it is probably only a matter of time before the NFHS issues a medical advisory relating to total matches/competitions in a season.  while some states have fairly strict weekly and season limits regarding the number of competitions and permissible amount of multi-team events, whereby it is extremely difficult to accumulate more than 40 matches in an entire season (excluding post-season), to hear of a wrestler missing 30 matches in a 2-3 week stretch will surely set off alarms at some level.

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1 hour ago, davenowa said:

as it appears not every state recognizes the NFHS 5-match rule, it is probably only a matter of time before the NFHS issues a medical advisory relating to total matches/competitions in a season.  while some states have fairly strict weekly and season limits regarding the number of competitions and permissible amount of multi-team events, whereby it is extremely difficult to accumulate more than 40 matches in an entire season (excluding post-season), to hear of a wrestler missing 30 matches in a 2-3 week stretch will surely set off alarms at some level.

Florida does have the five match daily, but no weekly or season match limitations.  Its a maximum of 20 weigh in points.  I'm not understanding the level of suspension here.  Even if it goes down as a level 1 suspension (which would follow the rule but would be the first time I've heard as such for a situation like what has been presented) its two scheduled competitions.  I would say at the very least OP has a really good chance of getting suspension reduced.  There's no mention of 8 points anywhere in suspension guidelines...just 8 competitions (for wrestling) on a level 2 suspension.  Interesting to say the least.

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30 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Florida does have the five match daily, but no weekly or season match limitations.  Its a maximum of 20 weigh in points.  I'm not understanding the level of suspension here.  Even if it goes down as a level 1 suspension (which would follow the rule but would be the first time I've heard as such for a situation like what has been presented) its two scheduled competitions.  I would say at the very least OP has a really good chance of getting suspension reduced.  There's no mention of 8 points anywhere in suspension guidelines...just 8 competitions (for wrestling) on a level 2 suspension.  Interesting to say the least.

Level 2 suspension is 8-10 points. Points are as follows per the FHSAA wrestling rules guide.
4.18.1.1.14 Season Limitations. 20 Points, 2 of which may only be single dual meets. using the following criteria:
• Dual Meet -1 Point
• Tri- meet – 2 Points
• Quad meet – 2 Points
• 1 Day tournament, Dual or IBT- 2 Points
• 2 Day tournament, Dual or IBT- 2 Points

 

He has been out four weeks. Can’t get in front of an appeals committee until February. Suspension will be completed on January 17th. We originally thought that 8 interscholastic contests would be considered 8 matches but when they came back with 8 points that equals almost 30 matches including the day he was DQ’d. 

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5 minutes ago, Nushy said:

Level 2 suspension is 8-10 points. Points are as follows per the FHSAA wrestling rules guide.
4.18.1.1.14 Season Limitations. 20 Points, 2 of which may only be single dual meets. using the following criteria:
• Dual Meet -1 Point
• Tri- meet – 2 Points
• Quad meet – 2 Points
• 1 Day tournament, Dual or IBT- 2 Points
• 2 Day tournament, Dual or IBT- 2 Points

 

He has been out four weeks. Can’t get in front of an appeals committee until February. Suspension will be completed on January 17th. We originally thought that 8 interscholastic contests would be considered 8 matches but when they came back with 8 points that equals almost 30 matches including the day he was DQ’d. 

Unless its changed this year, it is contests for the suspension, not points.  "Points" was never in any of the language regarding in level of suspension.  There is a big difference.  Maybe it changed this year?

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16 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Unless its changed this year, it is contests for the suspension, not points.  "Points" was never in any of the language regarding in level of suspension.  There is a big difference.  Maybe it changed this year?

Yes, changed this year. From my understanding they used to suspend by weeks based on football, soccer, etc. In the original email they said “suspended for 8 contests” when we tried to get clarification What 8 contests meant (events, matches, weigh-ins?)  they came back saying 8 points. The whole ordeal has been very frustrating. 

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3 minutes ago, Nushy said:

Yes, changed this year. From my understanding they used to suspend by weeks based on football, soccer, etc. In the original email they said “suspended for 8 contests” when we tried to get clarification What 8 contests meant (events, matches, weigh-ins?)  they came back saying 8 points. The whole ordeal has been very frustrating. 

I looked it up after I posted and there is no change, no mention of points.  This is from this year's FHSAA Handbook:

 

30.2.1.2 Level 2 Suspension. A student-athlete who receives a second Level 1 Suspension or commits an unsportsmanlike act, as defined in Bylaw 7.2.1, will be ineligible to compete, at a minimum, in the next interscholastic athletic contest, at any level, for a period of up to a maximum of the following: (a) Baseball, Basketball, Soccer, Softball, Volleyball and Water Polo - 12 contests (b) Bowling, Lacrosse and Tennis - 9 contests (c) Cross Country, Swimming & Diving, Track & Field, Flag Football and Weightlifting - 6 contests  (d) Football and Competitive Cheerleading - 5 contests (e) Golf - 8 contests (f) Wrestling - 10 contests;

Edited by Lurker

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5 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I looked it up after I posted and there is no change, no mention of points.  This is from this year's FHSAA Handbook:

 

30.2.1.2 Level 2 Suspension. A student-athlete who receives a second Level 1 Suspension or commits an unsportsmanlike act, as defined in Bylaw 7.2.1, will be ineligible to compete, at a minimum, in the next interscholastic athletic contest, at any level, for a period of up to a maximum of the following: (a) Baseball, Basketball, Soccer, Softball, Volleyball and Water Polo - 12 contests (b) Bowling, Lacrosse and Tennis - 9 contests (c) Cross Country, Swimming & Diving, Track & Field, Flag Football and Weightlifting - 6 contests  (d) Football and Competitive Cheerleading - 5 contests (e) Golf - 8 contests (f) Wrestling - 10 contests;

I did bring that up to the executive directors assistant, Justin Harrison. There is no mention of 8 points, just 8 interscholastic contests. They came back with 8 points when questioned. I said it before - they say what they want when they want. The school is terrified of going up against them because they are afraid they will get their membership revoked. I tried to screenshot emails to attach but the files are too big so I can’t post them. 

Interscholastic contest is defined as a competition between two schools. If we have 8 matches between different schools in his weight class during a duel tournament that would be time served.

But, this is a whole different subject than my original post. This is why I’m so frustrated. There are so many inconsistencies. No clarification of the punishment, no call on an illegal maneuver that could have prevented this whole mess and no due process based on the evidence provided. 

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“Biting” is level 2. In this case they ruled teethmarks as biting even though it was an open mouthed crossface as stated in the refs original report and the opposing coaches letter that was written on my son’s behalf. 

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40 minutes ago, Nushy said:

I did bring that up to the executive directors assistant, Justin Harrison. There is no mention of 8 points, just 8 interscholastic contests. They came back with 8 points when questioned. I said it before - they say what they want when they want. The school is terrified of going up against them because they are afraid they will get their membership revoked. I tried to screenshot emails to attach but the files are too big so I can’t post them. 

Interscholastic contest is defined as a competition between two schools. If we have 8 matches between different schools in his weight class during a duel tournament that would be time served.

But, this is a whole different subject than my original post. This is why I’m so frustrated. There are so many inconsistencies. No clarification of the punishment, no call on an illegal maneuver that could have prevented this whole mess and no due process based on the evidence provided. 

My friend why do you keep going to an illegal move, when it’s been explained time and again by multiple people that as you yourself described it, is not an illegal move. Just trying to help, and for one afraid if you don’t understand (and accept) what is and what isn’t about the scenario (i.e. continue calling a legal situation illegal) you guys aren’t going to have much of a chance. 
 

The 8 points you say Justin is telling you and how it conflicts with the 10 contests as stated, is a solid argument for you. 10 contests is ambiguous and certainly could mean duals, weigh ins, or points. Where 8 points comes from is odd and can see your frustration. 8 points could be 4-5 “contests”.  However as stated ten contests, to put it the best way, is ten weighins or scheduled events...whether it’s one individual match or five. Basically half of the season, which proportionate to other sports season is on the level. That said, assuming this is a first time incident, getting a level 2 for this seems harsh. That could be a strong argument, especially for what you say is good testimony from opposing coach. This really isn’t a rare incident, and I don’t know of any that resulted in level 2 for a first incident. There may be some but I don’t know of them. 
 

But what’s not going to be a good argument for you is illegal cross face, or whether or not it was a bite, or anything about the official being accountable. Unfortunately that is a “like it or not” situation. The official saw marks on both sides. The point of focus is just that, and the rule is DQ from the rest of the competition.  Trying to argue any of those points is going to hurt your case more than help. The letters won’t help with the call on the mat, but they can with the severity of the suspension.   

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