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Nushy

Illegal Maneuver Question

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49 minutes ago, Lurker said:

My friend why do you keep going to an illegal move, when it’s been explained time and again by multiple people that as you yourself described it, is not an illegal move. Just trying to help, and for one afraid if you don’t understand (and accept) what is and what isn’t about the scenario (i.e. continue calling a legal situation illegal) you guys aren’t going to have much of a chance. 
 

The 8 points you say Justin is telling you and how it conflicts with the 10 contests as stated, is a solid argument for you. 10 contests is ambiguous and certainly could mean duals, weigh ins, or points. Where 8 points comes from is odd and can see your frustration. 8 points could be 4-5 “contests”.  However as stated ten contests, to put it the best way, is ten weighins or scheduled events...whether it’s one individual match or five. Basically half of the season, which proportionate to other sports season is on the level. That said, assuming this is a first time incident, getting a level 2 for this seems harsh. That could be a strong argument, especially for what you say is good testimony from opposing coach. This really isn’t a rare incident, and I don’t know of any that resulted in level 2 for a first incident. There may be some but I don’t know of them. 
 

But what’s not going to be a good argument for you is illegal cross face, or whether or not it was a bite, or anything about the official being accountable. Unfortunately that is a “like it or not” situation. The official saw marks on both sides. The point of focus is just that, and the rule is DQ from the rest of the competition.  Trying to argue any of those points is going to hurt your case more than help. The letters won’t help with the call on the mat, but they can with the severity of the suspension.   

The suspension is up this weekend. Due to the FHSAA office being closed for almost 3 weeks for the holidays and their time constraints on requesting a sectional appeals committee what I will be fighting for is future wrestlers who encounter this unfortunate incident. I am seriously considering a civil suit based on the fact that this is his junior year, a time when he should be getting noticed for college scholarship opportunities. They can’t treat every infraction the same without taking solid evidence into consideration... well they can, and they did, but I will make it my goal to make sure it changes from here on out. Maybe a non-profit who represents athletes and parents who have no where to turn but forums for advice. 

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@Lurker I know you are frustrated that I keep bringing up the illegal maneuver, but it’s part of the whole picture. It’s really hard to watch on the video as my kid is struggling to get the kid’s arm from out of his mouth. The FHSAA used the video against us instead of for us. The reason I didn’t start this original thread with a biting call was because I knew it would be a hot topic of debate when I’m really just looking for friendly advice, which you have provided. There are multiple parts to the incident in question. 

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3 minutes ago, Nushy said:

@Lurker I know you are frustrated that I keep bringing up the illegal maneuver, but it’s part of the whole picture. It’s really hard to watch on the video as my kid is struggling to get the kid’s arm from out of his mouth. The FHSAA used the video against us instead of for us. The reason I didn’t start this original thread with a biting call was because I knew it would be a hot topic of debate when I’m really just looking for friendly advice, which you have provided. There are multiple parts to the incident in question. 

I’m not frustrated I’m just saying. I understand your son struggling with the cross face... but that doesn’t make it illegal. I’m just saying that’s not a winnable argument for you, because it’s not illegal. 
 

Question: in what way did the FHSAA use your video against you?

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4 hours ago, Nushy said:

“Biting” is level 2. In this case they ruled teethmarks as biting even though it was an open mouthed crossface as stated in the refs original report and the opposing coaches letter that was written on my son’s behalf. 

I don't see that listed that way. As I read it it's if it's malicious, so who knows.

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2 hours ago, Lurker said:

I’m not frustrated I’m just saying. I understand your son struggling with the cross face... but that doesn’t make it illegal. I’m just saying that’s not a winnable argument for you, because it’s not illegal. 
 

Question: in what way did the FHSAA use your video against you?

I don’t want to go into too much detail because without you actually seeing the photos, video, etc. it will seem like I’m being biased as the parent. They said the kid’s reaction when the ref blew the whistle indicated biting. He shook his arm once after one of his teammates yelled “he’s biting!” (caught on video from the angle the video was shot) and the ref stopped the match. We had the video slowed down and zoomed in. You can see the boys arm actually go into my son’s open mouth and then he proceeds to pull up and back. The opposing coach’s letter even states that his wrestler drove a hard crossface into his open mouth. I don’t know about you but I’ve been bitten before and shaking it off was not my response. 
They also said that the photo I submitted was taken 3 hours later so it wasn’t admissible. No bruising, broken skin that you would expect with an actual bite.  They didn’t mention the opposing coach’s letter. Didn’t even acknowledge it. 
I have read so much these last few weeks, but I did read somewhere that if a bite is called a ref should be sure that it was with malice and intent. I could go on and on but it won’t do any good. He’s already served his time. It’s somewhat therapeutic to talk about it though.

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12 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

I don't see that listed that way. As I read it it's if it's malicious, so who knows.

Here’s the kicker on that... the refs report says he stopped the match because of an “apparent bite” that he didn’t see. He called it after looking at the kids arm because there were upper and lower marks on the kids arm. Put your arm in your open mouth for 6-7 seconds pull back as hard as you can ( the kid was positioned on top, my son was belly down on the mat) and tell me if you have upper and lower teethmarks. 

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I would like to chime in as maybe I have a bit of expertise.

I was an All American in college as well as a resident at the Olympic training center.  I also have a black belt in jiujitsu and have placed at the world championships multiple times.  I would say I consider myself an authority on both cross faces and restricting breathing.

Restricting breathing to a point where it could be considered a potential danger with a crossface isnt a thing.  If it were, you would see people using it submission matches.  To think that a teenager could just forcefully use a crossface and have that much control with his forearm to therefore completely cover and restrict breathing is ridiculous. 

Having been the recipient of a crossface and a bitten a guy on my team, having an open mouth and getting crossfaced, giving a crossface on an open mouth, and then being flat out bitten maliciously, it becomes very, very evident when there is a bite, vs a crossface on an open mouth.  One has teeth marks, one has dragging scratches.  They look nothing alike.  This is why it pains me when I have parents claim that one of our wrestlers was bitten, I look, and its obvious he wasnt, or, vice versa, dad claims it was just an open mouth crossface and I know 100% my guy bit him.  Not a great feeling when parents feel their son is a victim and I have to be a disciplinarian. 

The appeals panel is going to look at the fact that the ref instantly looked and saw bite marks, vs your account from the stands and some kind of picture coming from the appealing party.  All I can hope is that the panel realizes how long and costly their lack of speed is causing your son and just drops it.

 

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On 1/9/2020 at 5:57 PM, Nushy said:

The suspension is up this weekend. Due to the FHSAA office being closed for almost 3 weeks for the holidays and their time constraints on requesting a sectional appeals committee what I will be fighting for is future wrestlers who encounter this unfortunate incident. I am seriously considering a civil suit based on the fact that this is his junior year, a time when he should be getting noticed for college scholarship opportunities. They can’t treat every infraction the same without taking solid evidence into consideration... well they can, and they did, but I will make it my goal to make sure it changes from here on out. Maybe a non-profit who represents athletes and parents who have no where to turn but forums for advice. 

@Nushy what was the conclusion at the hearing?

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@Lurker thank you for the dates. Unfortunately since the paperwork wasn’t submitted before the January deadline we will probably be looking at an appeaL hearing in March. His suspension has been served, but we are requesting a to be heard by a neutral panel and in the hopes of having the infraction removed from his record. I’m also planning on going to future board meetings to request that they clarify and amend the bite protocol in their bylaws. Not sure it will change anything but after our experience someone needs to speak up. 

Edited by Nushy

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10 minutes ago, Nushy said:

@Lurker thank you for the dates. Unfortunately since the paperwork wasn’t submitted before the January deadline we will probably be looking at an appeaL hearing in March. His suspension has been served, but we are requesting a to be heard by a neutral panel and in the hopes of having the infraction removed from his record. I’m also planning on going to future board meetings to request that they clarify and amend the bite protocol in their bylaws. Not sure it will change anything but after our experience someone needs to speak up. 

You should be good. Tomorrow is deadline for February appeals. As far as rule change, your better served going to NFHS than FHSAA. FHSAA follows NFHS rulebook. There may be a few tweaks on then but the bite rule I can guarantee won’t be one of them. NFHS is your better time spent. 

Edited by Lurker

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@Lurker thanks for the info.

You seem knowledgeable about wrestling rules. I know this is going to sound insane, and it is. This past weekend we were at a wrestling tournament. Two school’s (not ours) 185s were wrestling in the center of the mat when one of the kids got pissed, threw off his headgear, picked up the other wrestler and charged him into the bleachers. Fortunately, my husband was sitting where they landed and broke the kids fall. Unfortunately, my husband slammed his back so hard into the bleachers behind him that he fractured two vertebrae (he’s 6ft, 210lbs so you can imagine the impact) Do you know how far the edge of the wrestling mat is supposed to be away from spectators? 

btw, the wrestler who charged the other kid into the bleachers was allowed to finish the match without disqualification. No recourse at all. I can upload a link to YouTube if you are interested in seeing it. It’s pretty unbelievable. I can’t upload it here because the file is too large. 

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1 hour ago, Nushy said:

@Lurker thanks for the info.

You seem knowledgeable about wrestling rules. I know this is going to sound insane, and it is. This past weekend we were at a wrestling tournament. Two school’s (not ours) 185s were wrestling in the center of the mat when one of the kids got pissed, threw off his headgear, picked up the other wrestler and charged him into the bleachers. Fortunately, my husband was sitting where they landed and broke the kids fall. Unfortunately, my husband slammed his back so hard into the bleachers behind him that he fractured two vertebrae (he’s 6ft, 210lbs so you can imagine the impact) Do you know how far the edge of the wrestling mat is supposed to be away from spectators? 

btw, the wrestler who charged the other kid into the bleachers was allowed to finish the match without disqualification. No recourse at all. I can upload a link to YouTube if you are interested in seeing it. It’s pretty unbelievable. I can’t upload it here because the file is too large. 

The mat is supposed to have a five foot safety mat surrounding it. The team benches and table are supposed to be ten feet from the wrestling mat. This entire circumference is considered the competition space. 

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2 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

Should be 5 feet from the circle to the edge. Then ten feet to stands or benches. I'm not sure I see that other ten all the time, particularly in tournaments. You'd never fit the mats in a lot of gyms.

@gimpeltf do you know where I might find that information? 

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11 hours ago, Nushy said:

Completely off the original topic but here is the video. It’s fast so it helps to slow it down. 
 

January 23, 2020

 

Okay so after watching the video I really have to disagree with your description of what happened.  First, it doesn't appear he ripped off his headgear, it looks like it come off in the exhange and he got it out of the way.  This is very common.  Second, he didn't pick him up and charge him to the bleachers.  He shot a double, turned the corner, and ran through the attack, which is exactly what you are supposed to do (although he didn't do it all that well, that is what you are supposed to do).  In doing so you cant just stop on a dime when you're driving full force through a double.  He was allowed to continue the match with no recourse because he did absolutely nothing wrong in that sequence.  The only fault lies with the host school as the proper safety area was not in place, and that situation is exactly why those rules are what they are.   

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36 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Okay so after watching the video I really have to disagree with your description of what happened.  First, it doesn't appear he ripped off his headgear, it looks like it come off in the exhange and he got it out of the way.  This is very common.  Second, he didn't pick him up and charge him to the bleachers.  He shot a double, turned the corner, and ran through the attack, which is exactly what you are supposed to do (although he didn't do it all that well, that is what you are supposed to do).  In doing so you cant just stop on a dime when you're driving full force through a double.  He was allowed to continue the match with no recourse because he did absolutely nothing wrong in that sequence.  The only fault lies with the host school as the proper safety area was not in place, and that situation is exactly why those rules are what they are.   

 
@Lurker I didn’t realize that the proper safety area wasn’t in place. I’ve been to other tournaments where the mats are quite close to the bleachers. This event was run by a private school and the gym was small. I’m just glad they didn’t run into a child. 

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