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Nushy

Illegal Maneuver Question

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49 minutes ago, Lurker said:

My friend why do you keep going to an illegal move, when it’s been explained time and again by multiple people that as you yourself described it, is not an illegal move. Just trying to help, and for one afraid if you don’t understand (and accept) what is and what isn’t about the scenario (i.e. continue calling a legal situation illegal) you guys aren’t going to have much of a chance. 
 

The 8 points you say Justin is telling you and how it conflicts with the 10 contests as stated, is a solid argument for you. 10 contests is ambiguous and certainly could mean duals, weigh ins, or points. Where 8 points comes from is odd and can see your frustration. 8 points could be 4-5 “contests”.  However as stated ten contests, to put it the best way, is ten weighins or scheduled events...whether it’s one individual match or five. Basically half of the season, which proportionate to other sports season is on the level. That said, assuming this is a first time incident, getting a level 2 for this seems harsh. That could be a strong argument, especially for what you say is good testimony from opposing coach. This really isn’t a rare incident, and I don’t know of any that resulted in level 2 for a first incident. There may be some but I don’t know of them. 
 

But what’s not going to be a good argument for you is illegal cross face, or whether or not it was a bite, or anything about the official being accountable. Unfortunately that is a “like it or not” situation. The official saw marks on both sides. The point of focus is just that, and the rule is DQ from the rest of the competition.  Trying to argue any of those points is going to hurt your case more than help. The letters won’t help with the call on the mat, but they can with the severity of the suspension.   

The suspension is up this weekend. Due to the FHSAA office being closed for almost 3 weeks for the holidays and their time constraints on requesting a sectional appeals committee what I will be fighting for is future wrestlers who encounter this unfortunate incident. I am seriously considering a civil suit based on the fact that this is his junior year, a time when he should be getting noticed for college scholarship opportunities. They can’t treat every infraction the same without taking solid evidence into consideration... well they can, and they did, but I will make it my goal to make sure it changes from here on out. Maybe a non-profit who represents athletes and parents who have no where to turn but forums for advice. 

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@Lurker I know you are frustrated that I keep bringing up the illegal maneuver, but it’s part of the whole picture. It’s really hard to watch on the video as my kid is struggling to get the kid’s arm from out of his mouth. The FHSAA used the video against us instead of for us. The reason I didn’t start this original thread with a biting call was because I knew it would be a hot topic of debate when I’m really just looking for friendly advice, which you have provided. There are multiple parts to the incident in question. 

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3 minutes ago, Nushy said:

@Lurker I know you are frustrated that I keep bringing up the illegal maneuver, but it’s part of the whole picture. It’s really hard to watch on the video as my kid is struggling to get the kid’s arm from out of his mouth. The FHSAA used the video against us instead of for us. The reason I didn’t start this original thread with a biting call was because I knew it would be a hot topic of debate when I’m really just looking for friendly advice, which you have provided. There are multiple parts to the incident in question. 

I’m not frustrated I’m just saying. I understand your son struggling with the cross face... but that doesn’t make it illegal. I’m just saying that’s not a winnable argument for you, because it’s not illegal. 
 

Question: in what way did the FHSAA use your video against you?

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4 hours ago, Nushy said:

“Biting” is level 2. In this case they ruled teethmarks as biting even though it was an open mouthed crossface as stated in the refs original report and the opposing coaches letter that was written on my son’s behalf. 

I don't see that listed that way. As I read it it's if it's malicious, so who knows.

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2 hours ago, Lurker said:

I’m not frustrated I’m just saying. I understand your son struggling with the cross face... but that doesn’t make it illegal. I’m just saying that’s not a winnable argument for you, because it’s not illegal. 
 

Question: in what way did the FHSAA use your video against you?

I don’t want to go into too much detail because without you actually seeing the photos, video, etc. it will seem like I’m being biased as the parent. They said the kid’s reaction when the ref blew the whistle indicated biting. He shook his arm once after one of his teammates yelled “he’s biting!” (caught on video from the angle the video was shot) and the ref stopped the match. We had the video slowed down and zoomed in. You can see the boys arm actually go into my son’s open mouth and then he proceeds to pull up and back. The opposing coach’s letter even states that his wrestler drove a hard crossface into his open mouth. I don’t know about you but I’ve been bitten before and shaking it off was not my response. 
They also said that the photo I submitted was taken 3 hours later so it wasn’t admissible. No bruising, broken skin that you would expect with an actual bite.  They didn’t mention the opposing coach’s letter. Didn’t even acknowledge it. 
I have read so much these last few weeks, but I did read somewhere that if a bite is called a ref should be sure that it was with malice and intent. I could go on and on but it won’t do any good. He’s already served his time. It’s somewhat therapeutic to talk about it though.

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12 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

I don't see that listed that way. As I read it it's if it's malicious, so who knows.

Here’s the kicker on that... the refs report says he stopped the match because of an “apparent bite” that he didn’t see. He called it after looking at the kids arm because there were upper and lower marks on the kids arm. Put your arm in your open mouth for 6-7 seconds pull back as hard as you can ( the kid was positioned on top, my son was belly down on the mat) and tell me if you have upper and lower teethmarks. 

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I would like to chime in as maybe I have a bit of expertise.

I was an All American in college as well as a resident at the Olympic training center.  I also have a black belt in jiujitsu and have placed at the world championships multiple times.  I would say I consider myself an authority on both cross faces and restricting breathing.

Restricting breathing to a point where it could be considered a potential danger with a crossface isnt a thing.  If it were, you would see people using it submission matches.  To think that a teenager could just forcefully use a crossface and have that much control with his forearm to therefore completely cover and restrict breathing is ridiculous. 

Having been the recipient of a crossface and a bitten a guy on my team, having an open mouth and getting crossfaced, giving a crossface on an open mouth, and then being flat out bitten maliciously, it becomes very, very evident when there is a bite, vs a crossface on an open mouth.  One has teeth marks, one has dragging scratches.  They look nothing alike.  This is why it pains me when I have parents claim that one of our wrestlers was bitten, I look, and its obvious he wasnt, or, vice versa, dad claims it was just an open mouth crossface and I know 100% my guy bit him.  Not a great feeling when parents feel their son is a victim and I have to be a disciplinarian. 

The appeals panel is going to look at the fact that the ref instantly looked and saw bite marks, vs your account from the stands and some kind of picture coming from the appealing party.  All I can hope is that the panel realizes how long and costly their lack of speed is causing your son and just drops it.

 

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