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Arizona State at Ohio State - Next Monday on Fox Sports1

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5 hours ago, drag it said:

I just watched the third period again just to question whether I was being too negative.  Umm, no.  

The score was 14-3 with riding time locked when the period began -- 12 point lead; 120 seconds later Valencia had added two points to his lead and won by 14. 

He rode him for 85 seconds before he turned him loose, during which time he wasn't close to getting a turn -- let alone a pin.  Basically it looked like he was mad that the ref wasn't calling stalling, which was not realistic because it wasn't flagrant, it's a judgment call, and he did call it with 45 seconds left; also, what particular benefit would stalling calls have been -- the best he was going to get out of that were more points for a tech fall (not a chance in the world there was was going to be a disqualification), which he could have gotten much more easily by letting his opponent go with 75 or 90 seconds and getting his three takedowns.  

It looked like Jones started calling for Z to turn him loose with over a minute left; it's hard to tell.  While I'm being negative, it was particularly hard to tell what Zeke was saying because Tim Johnson was droning on with some weird and irrelevant ramblings about Valencia's weight and Olympic Trials qualification which made it sound like Johnson didn't understand that the people who run the NCAAs  will require Valencia to make weight if he chooses to compete at their tournament ("they want to get him up to 205 by the end of this year and then cut back down to 189 for the Olympic Trials") or that Valencia already made the OTT by winning a tiny little tournament down in Texas two weeks ago ("he wins the NCAAs, he's qualified").  I don't know, maybe he thinks that because Cassar is hurt, Z should go up to 285 and take on Gable in a big showdown in the Dome? 

The only possibly mitigating circumstance could be that maybe something happened that I couldn't understand; Jones was arguing with the refs after as if there were some kind of black and white scoring or rules issue (rather than a judgment call over stalling).  I doubt it, though -- and, all in all, those 85 seconds were not a great showcase for the folkstyle team score concept.

I honestly believe Zahid miscalculated the score and thought he had the tech fall. He seemed perplexed looking at the scoreboard after the match. 

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125-Malik still looks undersized and is suspect on bottom.  Courtney bigger and little better.

133-Decatur looked raw but got the job done against a tough senior

141-Pletcher continues to look fantastic

149-Sasso looked good against Maruca and has widened the gap since last year.  Would have liked to see him get the major.

157-Teemer should attack more.  Had at least on other double that he should have got a takedown for.

165-Good match that was controlled by Shields.  Smith was game but Shields won all the scrambles.  

174-Romero physically beat up on Anthony and the score could have been worse.  Valencia should have been hit for stalling a couple more times, particularly at the end of the second period.  Blood time allow AV to get a little breather or this would have been a major imo.  

184-Agreed with everyone that had Zahid played the takedown game and he would have had the tech easily.  While close, Hoffman did not looked pinned to me and I was sitting in the bleachers in front of the mat.  Had they not done out of bound on the cradle in the 1st period Zahid likely secures the fall.  Regarding stalling on bottom, Hoffman was literally trying to not get his head ripped off.  Getting your head/neck wrenched liked that for a few seconds is painful, having it done for 5 and a half minutes is torture.  Props to Hoffman for continuing to fight for the team and I'm quite certain he can't turn his head today. 

197-Good match.  Norfleet is game and his reshots were a thing of beauty.  I have to admit I was nervous but Moore rose to the occasion and got the job done.  Probably good that Moore gets pushed.  I think Norfleet will AA this year.

285-Disagree that Traub was stalling in the first period.  Both guys were handfighting hard.  Several times Hall attempted to push him around with the underhook (he was much taller) and Traub circled out of it and cleared the tie.  Traub had at least as many legitimate leg attacks as Hally and turned up the heat in the 3rd period.  Traub is undersized and never won a state title in Ohio but has huge balls and has become a crowd favorite at the Covelli.  

Overall great team effort by the Bucks.  After the big 3 (Pletcher, Sasso, Moore) Smith and Romero have emerged as legit AA threats.  

 

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8 hours ago, Idaho said:

I am not disagreeing that it was a huge mistake to not get the tech.  Everyone knows that.  I’m also not disagreeing that Sasso’s mistake was the greater. My point is that tOSU also had a chance to score a bonus and did not. Is that not true? Pretty simple. I’m pretty sure TR didn’t tell Sasso it was ok because he’s just a freshman. He knew the situation  

I agree - Zahid was frustrated when he came off the mat. And probably feels it more than the message board. 

The big difference to me is that Sasso had a brief mental lapse at the very end of the match that cost him the major. He didn't cut the guy with a minute left and then coast instead of trying to secure bonus. Zahid had all kinds of time to score some extra points and secure the tech, but just didn't do it, instead trying for the pin. I don't really fault him, a pin would have basically locked up the dual, whereas it was unclear who would have criteria in a tie. Also, duals don't matter, unfortunately.

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Traub has serious potential to improve, I feel.

He has the grit and determination to succeed. He needs to add size and strength and he. Can do things for his senior campaign next year.

That is assuming Singletary makes drop rather than Hoffman making the bump to 197 next year.

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What a great dual. First time in the Covelli Center and I was impressed.

A couple notes.....

Decatur is lightning fast. Fun to watch and probably should have remained in RS, but you have to appreciate Tom Ryan's stance to put his best team on the mat.

Pletcher is the real deal and looks unstoppable. Reminds me of MM last year, I hope he can avoid any let downs.

Sasso, coming on. I get it that he should have fought to hold on to the ankle, but easier said than done.

Cleary and Smith wrestled well in losing matches. Nice depth moving forward with these guys.

Romero just keeps improving. WOW!!!! Talk about being in control. The match played out similar to my expectations.

Zahid. IMHO- he is the best wrestler in the country and per previous debate, I could see him beating Moore. Even if Moore wins, which he could, it would be a very close and entertaining match. Major by either wrestler probably does not happen.

Moore wins despite not wrestling great against a game opponent. There will be matches like this from time to time and it was good to see Moore shake off the 2 takedowns and get the W.

Traub- GARY  GARY  GARY  GARY. Great effort, as always. I could see a warning given in the first period as for the first :90 Hall was pushing Traub all over the mat. But The Traubenater just kept pushing and did earn a stalling call in the 3rd. The man is undersized but has the heart of a lion. 

Overall a great environment and a great match on a Monday night.

 

 

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20 hours ago, goheels1812 said:

ASU staff would be crazy to bump Zahid because that would be the best way to jeopardize a dual they are pretty heavy favorites in.
 

Here’s an example of a time Zahid weighed in last year and bumped: he weighed in at 174 and bumped to 184 in ASU’s dual against UNC to wrestle Chip Ness. He got 3 takedowns in the 1st period, but the 10 extra pounds caught up with him by the 3rd period. If Ness had an extra 30-45 seconds in that match he probably would’ve beaten Zahid. And that’s Chip Ness we are talking about. All due respect to Zahid who is an absolute monster at 184, but Kolin Moore would hammer him. I’m thinking a comfortable major for Moore. I don’t even think it’d be entertaining for the fans. Just my opinion though. 

It's crazy to me that after all these years, Zahid is still not getting the proper respect that he's clearly earned over the years. I think Moore is an excellent wrestler BUT Zahid is much more technical and physical and would defeat Moore. 

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10 minutes ago, meluvwrestling said:

It's crazy to me that after all these years, Zahid is still not getting the proper respect that he's clearly earned over the years. I think Moore is an excellent wrestler BUT Zahid is much more technical and physical and would defeat Moore. 

I’ve given Zahid a ton of respect just in this thread alone. I said to me he’s pound for pound for the best wrestler in the country. I also said he could tech fall Hoffman 10/10 times if he needed to. Plenty of respect given. Just because I don’t think he could bump up and beat the #1 197 in the country is in no way a lack of respect for Zahid. In fact I think Zahid could take Moore down a time or two in the 1st period. I think ultimately he would fade due to the size difference and Moore would cruise to a solid win though. 

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55 minutes ago, Cruiser94 said:

What a great dual. First time in the Covelli Center and I was impressed.

A couple notes.....

Decatur is lightning fast. Fun to watch and probably should have remained in RS, but you have to appreciate Tom Ryan's stance to put his best team on the mat.

Pletcher is the real deal and looks unstoppable. Reminds me of MM last year, I hope he can avoid any let downs.

Sasso, coming on. I get it that he should have fought to hold on to the ankle, but easier said than done.

Cleary and Smith wrestled well in losing matches. Nice depth moving forward with these guys.

Romero just keeps improving. WOW!!!! Talk about being in control. The match played out similar to my expectations.

Zahid. IMHO- he is the best wrestler in the country and per previous debate, I could see him beating Moore. Even if Moore wins, which he could, it would be a very close and entertaining match. Major by either wrestler probably does not happen.

Moore wins despite not wrestling great against a game opponent. There will be matches like this from time to time and it was good to see Moore shake off the 2 takedowns and get the W.

Traub- GARY  GARY  GARY  GARY. Great effort, as always. I could see a warning given in the first period as for the first :90 Hall was pushing Traub all over the mat. But The Traubenater just kept pushing and did earn a stalling call in the 3rd. The man is undersized but has the heart of a lion. 

Overall a great environment and a great match on a Monday night.

 

I was certain Moore was going to lose this match after giving up the first takedown. The ripple effect in my thoughts meant the dual meet was locked up for ASU. One has to hand it to Moore for staying calm and battling through. Some wins are ugly. But they are still wins.

Edited by RealAmericanHero

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I think people are going to find out in March that Norfleet is the real deal. He is currently 2-2 on the year with a medical forfeit loss as well. But that’s with 2 losses to Moore (11-9 and 5-3). Then his 2 wins are over Greg Bulsak (awesome name, also a solid wrestler) and convincingly over Kyle Conel (10-4), who I know probably will never be that same guy from his 3rd place finish. But to me that’s still a solid win for Norfleet. 
 

If Norfleet is 100% healthy in March I would absolutely not want to see him anywhere near my name on the bracket.  

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Regarding Kollin Moore:  There have always been certain wrestlers who give him a hard time due to styles.  Norfleet is one of them as he has now surprised Moore twice with good counter shots.  Moore should adjust and widen the gap as Norfleet has not shown he can score except when Moore attacks.  Still, respect for Norfleet.  He was prepared and gave a game effort.

Great dual which could have easily gone the other way.  Agree that Traub should probably have got a stall warning in the first period.  But credit to Gas Tank Gary for doing his job and giving himself a shot at the end.  

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IMO Arizona State lost that dual in the 2nd match, i.e., when RS Senior Joshua Kramer lost to the Ohio State freshman 5-3.

And the loss was clinched when Anthony Valencia lost his match at 174 lbs.  Anthony - once again - looked VERY unimpressive and basically uninterested in competing.  It's not the first time I've seen him wrestle like that.  Probably won't be the last time either.

Then there's the matter of Zahid................I truly have to wonder what he was thinking in the 3rd period.  OR IF HE WAS THINKING AT ALL.   He must have known that he needed either a win by fall or at the very least a tech fall (which would have tied the dual with two matches to go).  Yet he CHOSE to ride his opponent for basically 3/4 of that third period - scoring no points at all - before he finally let him up and took him down again to get to a 14 point lead.  REALLY POOR JUDGEMENT ON ZAHID'S PART last night.........just plain STUPID.   So he ends up ONLY getting a Major Decision win and leaves ASU 1 point SHORT of tying the dual at 14.

I can understand that he wanted to get the pin to go ahead by one point but IMO he SHOULD have worked to get the TF first - then try for the pin.

 

 

 

Edited by Bronco

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1 hour ago, meluvwrestling said:

It's crazy to me that after all these years, Zahid is still not getting the proper respect that he's clearly earned over the years. I think Moore is an excellent wrestler BUT Zahid is much more technical and physical and would defeat Moore. 

Yeah. I am a Michigander then a B1G feller then a MAC fellar... ASU isn't even near my list of schools to root for.

I think Zahid wins easily. Easier than Nickal won, save for the time he brought his hips to the match.

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12 hours ago, Tommy Payan said:

ASU disappointments again......Maruca and A. Valencia....has been that way for the last few years.

Disappointment ?  Yes.............but I fail to see what Maruca had to do with that.  Did you believe Maruca was going to beat Sasso?  Seriously???  I certainly did not believe that was going to happen. 

What I DID believe possible was Kramer winning at 133 lbs against either one of the two Ohio State guys.  I thought his loss at 133 lbs set the tone for the rest of the dual.  IF Kramer had won his match then ASU would have only been down 8-6 after the first four matches - instead of being down 11-3 after those first four matches.  

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19 hours ago, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

Ohio State needs to either win all the toss-ups or pull an upset to win. If Norfleet doesn't go that also helps their cause as Moore's bonus then likely cancels out whatever Zahid decides he's going to do to Hoffman. 

Wrestlestate has this 23-10 now with Singletary out... I think it's much closer than that.  Something like 17-16.  

Not to toot my own horn (but actually to do just that)--this prediction aged pretty well. Broken clock twice a day... something like that.  

Most entertaining dual of the season so far for me before we head into B10 dual season. My takeaways were:

- Decatur has to make jumps if he's going to challenge in any meaningful way in March.  He deserves a bit of a break making weight twice in quick succession plus seeing his first real opponent... but looking at the top 10 at 133, it's getting crowded.  Kramer is game but I also think he let Decatur get away with that match in a few key spots.  
- Sasso... please find your offense.  Nearly majoring Maruca isn't a bad result, but he has so much more in his locker he's not getting to at the moment.
- Shields is such a smart wrestler... comfortable in every position and usually wins the 50/50's.  
- Romero is a hard puzzle to crack.  Think he can beat anyone outside of the top 3.  
- Zahid... just nasty.  Calculator watch could have helped him in that one.  
- Norfleet, other than Romero, would have been my MVP of the dual. Anything less than a solid leg attack on him is 2 coming back the other way.  Definite AA candidate, and maybe high. 

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2 hours ago, Bronco said:

 

Then there's the matter of Zahid................I truly have to wonder what he was thinking in the 3rd period.  OR IF HE WAS THINKING AT ALL.  

 

 

huh.jpg

Well he was kind've busy wrestling and prob didn't have time to do the math and thinking.  This really is the job of an assistant coach, sure I know its hard to find a wrestling coach who can do math but then hire an intern to do the math for you.  There was plenty of opportunity at end of 2nd to relay a change in strategy of go for the tech, if get a pin fine but focus on the tech.  

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4 minutes ago, RealAmericanHero said:

Here is the thing about dual meets that is so intriguing: imagine if this match would have started at 184 (or, I suppose, any other weight class). How might that have changed some things.

When dual meets are close like this one, they are incredibly exciting. 

Yes! It’s fun when duals start at a random weight - no need to always put it on the Hwts to decide the dual, if it comes down to that.

Even better, it would be fun if the order was randomized too. Have a coin toss at the start of the dual, then the winning coach gets to pick which weight starts. At the end of the match, the other coach picks which weight class goes next. And so on, with alternating picks. Adds an element of coaching strategy to the dual.

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4 hours ago, balanceseeker said:

Traub is undersized and never won a state title in Ohio but has huge balls and has become a crowd favorite at the Covelli.  

O

 

Does he wear a custom made jock strap? I know I had to order mine custom made from India (they didn't have any XXXXXXL size jocks in America at the time).

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6 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

Does he wear a custom made jock strap? I know I had to order mine custom made from India (they didn't have any XXXXXXL size jocks in America at the time).

While only measuring length doesn't tell the whole story...You can make your own presumptions with a bit of research.

Western African countries such as Ghana, Gabon and the Congo conquer the list, with averages in excess of 16 centimetres.    India, Thailand and South Korea are found at the bottom, with average sizes between 9.3 and 10.5 centimetres.

 

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2 hours ago, Bronco said:

Disappointment ?  Yes.............but I fail to see what Maruca had to do with that.  Did you believe Maruca was going to beat Sasso?  Seriously???  I certainly did not believe that was going to happen. 

What I DID believe possible was Kramer winning at 133 lbs against either one of the two Ohio State guys.  I thought his loss at 133 lbs set the tone for the rest of the dual.  IF Kramer had won his match then ASU would have only been down 8-6 after the first four matches - instead of being down 11-3 after those first four matches.  

Didn't mean to imply this dual results only, been following ASU for years, (still remember the 1988 championship year), but Josh and Anthony have had me talking to myself on countless occasions, I've walked out of Well Fargo Arena shaking my head and telling myself...damn...Maruca again.

BTW, don't see Maruca even making the cut for NCAA's with Van Der Werve and Rofhling placing ahead of him at PAC-12's.

I'll be at Chase Field this coming Saturday and hope to see something different that will change my mind. 

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2 hours ago, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

Not to toot my own horn (but actually to do just that)--this prediction aged pretty well. Broken clock twice a day... something like that.  

Most entertaining dual of the season so far for me before we head into B10 dual season. My takeaways were:

- Decatur has to make jumps if he's going to challenge in any meaningful way in March.  He deserves a bit of a break making weight twice in quick succession plus seeing his first real opponent... but looking at the top 10 at 133, it's getting crowded.  Kramer is game but I also think he let Decatur get away with that match in a few key spots.  
- Sasso... please find your offense.  Nearly majoring Maruca isn't a bad result, but he has so much more in his locker he's not getting to at the moment.
- Shields is such a smart wrestler... comfortable in every position and usually wins the 50/50's.  
- Romero is a hard puzzle to crack.  Think he can beat anyone outside of the top 3.  
- Zahid... just nasty.  Calculator watch could have helped him in that one.  
- Norfleet, other than Romero, would have been my MVP of the dual. Anything less than a solid leg attack on him is 2 coming back the other way.  Definite AA candidate, and maybe high. 

The way your post reads, it looks as if the 17-16 score you predicted had Arizona State winning so good guess on the final score but you didn’t pick the end result exactly right. I know, well actually I don’t know... why I just corrected that lol. Carry on.

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16 hours ago, Bronco said:

I thought A.V. might very well lose to Romero.  Saw that coming just by looking at their results against common opponents.  Particularly vs. Skatzka last month - Valencia lost 10-1 and Romero lost 1-0 vs. Skatzka.

Yet the WrestleStat projection for that 174 lb match was A. Valencia beating Romero by an 11-3 Major Decision  Whatever that algorithm is that they are using at WrestleState it is SERIOUSLY flawed.

Ya... especially considering Romero has never been majored in his college wrestling career to date, not once. But this algorithm had Anthony Valencia doing so first!?

Romero went 11-1 his redshirt year in ‘18, and is a combined 33-9 including this redshirt year. Not once has he lost worse than a decision, or a medical forfeit.
 

Predicting a 11-3 major by Valencia was simply laughable.

Edited by Aviator12

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