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LCpl Schmuckatelli

All-Star Team, 2010-2019

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This is a cool topic. I’m taking this as best dual team you can get out of everyone at their peak in that particular weight class.

125- Lee

133- Oliver

141- Steiber

149- Zain

157- Dake

165- Burroughs 

174- Ruth

184- Nickal

197- Cox

285- Snyder

Also, wanted to add that all you who left Burroughs off this list are insane or just have a bad memory of how good he was a senior at 165. Probably the best at his peak followed closely by Dake (I’m taking jr. Dake to get them both in).

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34 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Did Bo not wrestle 197?  What is 92kg?  I will do the math for you. 92x2.2=202.4. So that 5.4 lbs is a huge factor?

As far as got hammered goes you again are ONLY looking at the score. Cox controlled him from start to finish. 

So in other words... it was at a heavier weight than Bo ever wrestled in college. Just.like.I.said. Learn to read before replying. 
 

And yes, 5-6 lbs in addition to it being in Folkstyle can without question make the difference. 

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6 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

This is a cool topic. I’m taking this as best dual team you can get out of everyone at their peak in that particular weight class.

125- Lee

133- Oliver

141- Steiber

149- Zain

157- Dake

165- Burroughs 

174- Ruth

184- Nickal

197- Cox

285- Snyder

Also, wanted to add that all you who left Burroughs off this list are insane or just have a bad memory of how good he was a senior at 165. Probably the best at his peak followed closely by Dake (I’m taking jr. Dake to get them both in).

What was JB's record?

Dieringer went 35-3, 32-1, 33-0 & 33-0 with 3 titles & a ~1:40 pin for 3rd Fr year.  Believe thats 66-0 at 165lb & a Hodge.

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52 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Because ringer will always be behind Taylor and dake who both titles at 165 and also JB has one in that same span...your crazy for gable though...he hasn’t even won a conference title yet , sure maybe he ends up a 3 timer but Snyder won a world gold medal then knocked off the defending 2 time champ ....gable doesn’t have close to the accomplishments of Snyder 

But it’s not about accomplishments, it’s about who would win. Snyder was good but he wasn’t unbeatable at HW, and I think Gable is as good or better than anyone Snyder faced in college. If Gwiz from 3 years ago can take Snyder to overtime and Coon was able give him damn close matches (even beating him once) what makes you think Gable isn’t capable of beating him?
 

Steveson took a far more refined Gwiz to within 1pt in freestyle and absolutely murdered Coon last time they wrestled. I don’t think it’s far fetched at all to think Gable of today could beat senior NCAA Snyder at HW. 

Edited by AZ_wrestling

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24 minutes ago, AZ_wrestling said:

So in other words... it was at a heavier weight than Bo ever wrestled in college. Just.like.I.said. Learn to read before replying. 
 

And yes, 5-6 lbs in addition to it being in Folkstyle can without question make the difference. 

I am pretty sure I replied EXACTLY to your post, so not sure where “learn to read” applies. You do know that a response like that doesn’t help your argument?  

There is no winning this argument, but J’Den won 197 3 out of 4 years and the brackets were much deeper than the year Nickal won.   By, his senior year Cox was nearly impossible to score on. Just like Dake over Taylor, I will take impregnable defense vs wide open offense. 

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Here are my picks, assuming you can take the pinnacle version of each wrestler and also slot them in at any weight they wrestled.

125: Spencer Lee

133: Logan Stieber

141: Kyle Dake

149: Jordan Burroughs

157: Jason Nolf

165: David Taylor

174: Zahid Valencia

184: Bo Nickal

197: J'den Cox

Hwt: Kyle Snyder

I could see popping out Nolf and sliding in Zain in this approach, but I think you have to make room for Taylor over either of them in this approach.

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34 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

125 - Lee

133 - Stieber

141 - Yianni

149 - Zain

157 - Dake

165 - Burroughs

174 - Zahid

184 - Ruth

197 - Cox

285 - Snyder 

Hmm Yianni inclusion is interesting and may merit conversation. Is 133 oliver or 141 yianni better with stieber being the other man in?

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125-Lee

133-JO

141-steibler

149-Zain 

157 Nolf 

165- dake ...he beat Taylor 3 times at this weight

174- Ruth sophomore Ruth was probably the most locked in And best version 

184- Bo 

197- Cox 

285- Snyder  - he lost 1 match at heavyweight ever and then avenged it twice all while winning world and Olympic gold, college Snyder vs college gable wouldn’t even be close 

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1 hour ago, ionel said:

What was JB's record?

Dieringer went 35-3, 32-1, 33-0 & 33-0 with 3 titles & a ~1:40 pin for 3rd Fr year.  Believe thats 66-0 at 165lb & a Hodge.

He was 36-0 and won the hodge. Oh and won that whole world championship thing a few months later. How did Ringer do right after he graduated? We are talking peak so freshman year has zero relevance. No way Ringer as a senior beats Burroughs as a senior

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1 hour ago, MSU158 said:

I am pretty sure I replied EXACTLY to your post, so not sure where “learn to read” applies. You do know that a response like that doesn’t help your argument?  

There is no winning this argument, but J’Den won 197 3 out of 4 years and the brackets were much deeper than the year Nickal won.   By, his senior year Cox was nearly impossible to score on. Just like Dake over Taylor, I will take impregnable defense vs wide open offense. 

Expert you didn’t. I explicitly said it was at a heavier weight than Bo wrestled in college, and it was. You tried to be smart ass. 

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6 hours ago, Gantry said:

Hot take - sophomore year 174 Ruth was the best version of Ed Ruth and better than any version of Zahid, at least in folkstyle.   Put him at 174 and junior year Bo at 184. 

He wasn’t better than Zahid. How dare you

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1 hour ago, Perry said:

Hmm Yianni inclusion is interesting and may merit conversation. Is 133 oliver or 141 yianni better with stieber being the other man in?

Not sure, I guess I did kinda do it as a lifetime achievement award, where everyone on my list other than Burroughs has or (or should win in the case of Lee, Yianni and Zahid) at least 3 titles.  The only 3x’ers I left off are Nolf (Dake), Ringer (Burroughs) and Nickal (Ruth).  And I believe only Lee, Stieber and Yianni are at weights where they only competed as freshmen or sophomores.

Edited by 1032004

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Great topic.  I think you'd have to really reach to be 'wrong'.  I'm going off of peak at that weight class.

125 Robles - I don't think the answer exists for what he brought as a senior. 

133 - ???, Sophomore Oliver was tough before the terrible weight cut his junior year.  Stieber is a great answer.  Brewer was awesome in 2015.  He beat undefeated Dardenes 15-3 in the semis at NCAAs.  He missed time injured and got a ridiculous 13 seed and blitzed the field.  He was 22-1 with the only loss to Earl Hall a bit fluky.  Ramos is really good.  But in the end I go with Ness.  He was the Hodge winner in 2010 and being from the start of the decade probably keeps him off of most lists.

141 - Stieber.  Heil erases almost half a decade by winning titles but having zero claim to this crown.  Luckily Stieber dominated the other half.  

149 - Probably the best weight.  Metcalf, Dake, Molinaro, Zain.  But I go with Senior Jordan Oliver.  Without the weight cut he blitzed the field.  

157 - It's tempting to put Dake here, but only because it fits the roster.  He was best at 165.  Nolf is the pick.  

165 - Dake.  Better than 149 now that I think about it.  Burroughs, Taylor, and Dieringer were awesome in college.  Martinez and Joseph short of those 4 but still good enough to be in other weights. Dake was simply better in college than all of these awesome wrestlers.  

174 - Ruth.  Valencia is great and is a fine choice.  Perry's destruction of Howe in the finals was in the best 5 wins of the decade but he got beat 2 weeks earlier.  Borschel kicked off the decaede strong.  But Ruth all day here.

184 - Nickal.  I don't think anyone has made great wrestlers look worse.  He looked effortless like Ruth but without looking disinterested.  

197 - Cox

285 - Snyder.  Although I wouldn't be shocked to see college Tony Nelson beat college Snyder in a folkstyle match.  

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1 hour ago, Eagle26 said:

He was 36-0 and won the hodge. Oh and won that whole world championship thing a few months later. How did Ringer do right after he graduated? We are talking peak so freshman year has zero relevance. No way Ringer as a senior beats Burroughs as a senior

What he did a few months after in a different style also has zero relevance.

I give the advantage to JB, but Dieringer is better than anyone JB beat in college.  

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3 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

This is a cool topic. I’m taking this as best dual team you can get out of everyone at their peak in that particular weight class.

125- Lee

133- Oliver

141- Steiber

149- Zain

157- Dake

165- Burroughs 

174- Ruth

184- Nickal

197- Cox

285- Snyder

Also, wanted to add that all you who left Burroughs off this list are insane or just have a bad memory of how good he was a senior at 165. Probably the best at his peak followed closely by Dake (I’m taking jr. Dake to get them both in).

 

Senior JB was 20 seconds away from losing to Tyler Caldwell at BIg 12s.  I think people are transposing what he did in FS onto what he was doing on a college mat a few months earlier.  I think it's clear senior JB could go takedowns and win with any 165 of the past decade (or any other decade in history).  What's being forgotten is college wrestling allows guys who aren't as good on their feet to shrink a match and win without winning the TD battle.  I don't think JB takes down Dake repeatedly, and that's what it would take for him to offset the mat and tactics advantage.  

But I'm totally fine with you thinking otherwise.  I just think you acting like it's no argument is false.

Edited by boconnell

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8 hours ago, boconnell said:
 

Senior JB was 20 seconds away from losing to Tyler Caldwell at BIg 12s.  I think people are transposing what he did in FS onto what he was doing on a college mat a few months earlier.  I think it's clear senior JB could go takedowns and win with any 165 of the past decade (or any other decade in history).  What's being forgotten is college wrestling allows guys who aren't as good on their feet to shrink a match and win without winning the TD battle.  I don't think JB takes down Dake repeatedly, and that's what it would take for him to offset the mat and tactics advantage.  

But I'm totally fine with you thinking otherwise.  I just think you acting like it's no argument is false.

Those are fair points. You are right that this is all opinion so there’s always an argument the other way. I was just shocked how many people left JB off the list. Caldwell did keep it close with him at Big 12s by stalling his brains out, but then Burroughs showed he was clearly the better wrestler at NCAA. I do disagree that Burroughs freestyle results immediately after have zero relevance... I agree styles don’t always translate but winning a world championship shows his takedowns are truly elite. Could Dieringer have stolen a match from him? Probably. I just think overall JB was better. 165 Dake is definitely a tight match and I can understand that pick, but think the best dual team is Dake 157, JB 165. 

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11 hours ago, Antitroll2828 said:

125-Lee

133-JO

141-steibler

149-Zain 

157 Nolf 

165- dake ...he beat Taylor 3 times at this weight

174- Ruth sophomore Ruth was probably the most locked in And best version 

184- Bo 

197- Cox 

285- Snyder  - he lost 1 match at heavyweight ever and then avenged it twice all while winning world and Olympic gold, college Snyder vs college gable wouldn’t even be close 

This is the best list I’ve seen so far.  Later today I hope to make my list but pretty sure I will match in 8 of them.  Leaving Burroughs out is questionable though.

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These are interesting lists. I am surprised that none of the Trackwrestling guys picked Ruth, though Bo was equally dominant and did win a Hodge. 

It seems like 125 is the toughest  weight to pick. I am surprised that McDonough, who was in the finals 3X and won twice (and was injured his senior year) is gettin no love. I am not advocating for him, but his record stacks up with anyone's.  Was his style just too prosaic?

 

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1 hour ago, Mokoma said:

This is the best list I’ve seen so far.  Later today I hope to make my list but pretty sure I will match in 8 of them.  Leaving Burroughs out is questionable though.

If someone wanted to put Dake at 157 and JB at 165 I wouldn’t have an issue , but Nolf lost 2 matches in 4 years at 157 ( both to Imar his freshman year and throttled almost everyone else ,including winning a title with a torn up knee ...and dake beating Taylor multiple times at 165 ,which are better wins then anyone else has 

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3 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

Those are fair points. You are right that this is all opinion so there’s always an argument the other way. I was just shocked how many people left JB off the list. Caldwell did keep it close with him at Big 12s by stalling his brains out, but then Burroughs showed he was clearly the better wrestler at NCAA. I do disagree that Burroughs freestyle results immediately after have zero relevance... I agree styles don’t always translate but winning a world championship shows his takedowns are truly elite. Could Dieringer have stolen a match from him? Probably. I just think overall JB was better. 165 Dake is definitely a tight match and I can understand that pick, but think the best dual team is Dake 157, JB 165. 

I think Dieringer is like 1 in 10 with him.  And that might be too generous.  JB is clearly better and Dieringer was not a great top guy or a guy with great tactics.  He horsed people around and exploded through people.  He has little chance against JB.

But the Caldwell match shows that even peak college JB had some mat issues and some tactics issues.  He could sometimes be dragged away from his match.  I think Dake is maybe the best tactical wrestler ever.  I think his defense in neutral is elite.  I think his riding is near legendary.  I think that's the right mix of skills to shrink a 7 minute match to short manageable stretches.  I wouldn't be surprised by edge wrestling, clinging on top, counter half shots to avoid stalling, and a victory in ride outs by Dake.  I just think folkstyle matches allow tons of ways to win and Dake uses all of them to win more than he loses in that matchup.

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1 hour ago, Antitroll2828 said:

If someone wanted to put Dake at 157 and JB at 165 I wouldn’t have an issue , but Nolf lost 2 matches in 4 years at 157 ( both to Imar his freshman year and throttled almost everyone else ,including winning a title with a torn up knee ...and dake beating Taylor multiple times at 165 ,which are better wins then anyone else has 

Fair, is Nolf better than Taylor at 157?

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