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Perry

Current SR P4P

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11 hours ago, Lurker said:

So achieving world championships doesn’t factor into p4p rankings?  They seem to be since you have the five champs in the top five as well. Not really sure what your point to me was. 

The difference is that world and Olympic medals seem to be your only criteria, not mine. A p4p list consists of who do you think the best wrestler is right now regardless of weight. Not who has the most medals which I say again seems to be your only criteria. That being said with the results of today's tournament I would put zahid ahead of snyder and maybe even throw JO above snyder. Fix drops significantly and maybe even drops off the list. 

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20 minutes ago, BTC said:

The difference is that world and Olympic medals seem to be your only criteria, not mine. A p4p list consists of who do you think the best wrestler is right now regardless of weight. Not who has the most medals which I say again seems to be your only criteria. That being said with the results of today's tournament I would put zahid ahead of snyder and maybe even throw JO above snyder. Fix drops significantly and maybe even drops off the list. 

I wouldn't be so down on Snyder. Alright, he had a bad match against a very good and powerful Iranian. Anyway Kyle still took the bronze.

Also, Kyle looked great at Alans in December going 5-0 and knocking off 3 Russians.

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9 hours ago, 2td3nf said:

I wouldn't be so down on Snyder. Alright, he had a bad match against a very good and powerful Iranian. Anyway Kyle still took the bronze.

Also, Kyle looked great at Alans in December going 5-0 and knocking off 3 Russians.

Yea very true, I would probably keep snyder were he's at or maybe just drop him down a spot. At least until more is seen from him. I say that because of his switch to the nlwc. It will either be a hindrance to him as he will get away from what made him so good in the first place or hes gonna take to the training well and become a force like he once was. I dont see any in between with him.

Zain just seems like hes stuck at square one in the sense that the upper tier of guys at that weight are still out of reach. I would not be surprised if never makes a team again considering the emergence of yianni, joey McKenna and an improved JO. He reminds me so much of Metcalf. A force domestically but cant put it together internationally. They're similar in their styles too. Zain seems to rely on a lot of forward pressure and stamina much like Brent did. Unlike JO who seems to have always had that slick style to compete internationally but for whatever reason couldn't pull it together until recently. I hope I'm wrong on zain.

Zahid seems like hes the heir apparent to 86kg once DT and Cox move on. Shoot he might even snag a few world spots from them once hes out of college and all in on freestyle but until now DT and Cox are the big dawgs at the weight.

I want to believe in Fix but to me his advantage of being more physically mature than the competition is completely negated on this level. At least that's how I've always seen it. I fear that this will only be more evident as time goes on. Once lee catches up and starts getting that grown man strength I see him rarely being challenged by Fix. Daton is a young buck though so he has plenty of time to improve. Hes never had a style that's reliant on strength and brute force. I would put colon ahead of fix right now. 

Ok that's my essay long post for the day.

Unrelated side note: jeez how good did McGregor look, complete annihilation.

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1a. Cox

1b. Dake

3. Taylor

4. Burroughs

5. Snyder

6. Gilman

7. Gwiz

8. Zain

9. Valencia 

10. Lee

Couple of notes... Snyder maintains his #5 because we know what he is capable of and he just had some tactical errors this weekend. I think Lee may beat Gilman but for now we have to keep Gilman ahead. Same with Zain and JO... they both lost close ones to Bajrang. JO is looking like he may be our guy, but can’t put him above Zain just yet. A lot will change in the next few months

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Snyder has more to work on than a few tactical errors. Something is wrong if Lee (I’m a huge fan) is on the list with zero senior international wins but Yianni is not. Yianni beat Bajrang, who beat both Zain and JO, not to speak of his unavenged defeat of JO and back and forth with Zain. He is above Valencia too. 

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37 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Snyder has more to work on than a few tactical errors. Something is wrong if Lee (I’m a huge fan) is on the list with zero senior international wins but Yianni is not. Yianni beat Bajrang, who beat both Zain and JO, not to speak of his unavenged defeat of JO and back and forth with Zain. He is above Valencia too. 

Fair points... Snyder has a lot to improve on to be an Olympic champ again, but then again so do all the others below him on the list. So I still think he is better than anyone below him. I actually debated on Yianni or Lee for that final spot, but Lee dismantled everyone at sr. nationals whereas Yianni lost to McKenna. I know Lee is unproven internationally at the senior level, but I think he made it evident what he is capable of Nationals. The last few spots are all debatable though

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35 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

Fair points... Snyder has a lot to improve on to be an Olympic champ again, but then again so do all the others below him on the list. So I still think he is better than anyone below him. I actually debated on Yianni or Lee for that final spot, but Lee dismantled everyone at sr. nationals whereas Yianni lost to McKenna. I know Lee is unproven internationally at the senior level, but I think he made it evident what he is capable of Nationals. The last few spots are all debatable though

Don’t get me wrong, I think Snyder is on the list and high. I was just disagreeing with your assessment of his match with Mohammadian. It wasn’t just a tactical error or two. He got beat every way possible: offense, defense, on the feet, on the ground, on the edge of the mat over a lot of minutes of wrestling. 

As I said, huge Lee fan, so I don’t enjoy taking him off lists. But achievements matter and he just hasn’t put himself in front of the caliber of opponent Yianni has. Not his fault, but he has not proven as much as Yianni yet. If not having lost yet is a criterion, why not Seth Gross over Lee? 

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Yes, there are a few names not included that do deserve some mention.

 

I do not see how anyone can put Taylor above Burroughs myself. Burroughs has six or so wins head to head with no losses to Taylor and is a 5x world champ/multi time medalist vs Taylor who has won one world title "only"

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On 1/17/2020 at 12:34 PM, Perry said:

This is what I think it currently looks like:

1. Cox

2. Burroughs

3. Dake

4. Snyder

5. Taylor

6. Gwiz/Steveson

7. Green

8. Fix

9. Zain

10. Gilman

11. Lee

HM: Dieringer, Valencia, iMar

I'm fine with the list, assuming you missed a digit (other than zero front or back) for James Green at #7.  IMO, he's probably only the 5th best guy at 74kg domestically. 

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Okay, when I do a list like this, I always imagine that everyone magically becomes the same weight and ask myself who has the best wrestling skills and tactics.

1. Cox: Nearly flawless position and match management.  Unreal cool under pressure and uses freakish creativity and athleticism seemingly at will against the best in the world. No glaring weaknesses at all, and 2nd best wrestler in the world to Sadulaev, imo.

2. Dake: p4p to me means the 79kg Dake who obliterates anyone in front of him scoring at will.  Matches are as close as he wants them to be, and every time he needs to go and get one it is nearly instantaneous.  Easily our best guy at going huge for fours or scoring in bunches when he senses a moment of weakness.  Very very rarely breaks position or loses control of the match.  Only real weakness is focusing on/complaining to refs and injuries, which I don't factor here

3. Burroughs.  Best mat IQ and demeanor i have ever seen in my life.  The fact that Sidakov has beaten him twice in the last second is absolutely mindblowing, but no one in the U.S. has his level of clutch, and it isn't particularly close.  Sticks to a strategy and does not deviate or ever think he will lose.  Weakness is he doesn't really wrestle and avoids almost all wrestling in matches; he mostly punches people in the face and destroys them on very clever and amazing reshots/counter shots. He is an underrated scrambler, though, and it does work like a charm, but I won't consider him GOAT.  He is ALWAYS improving though, so I should not understate his evolution.

4. Taylor. The least fun person to wrestle on our team.  He is pulling your head down wearing out your lower back >90% of the match, and cat/mousing you to see where you're open and it just breaks everyone.  Crazy hip awareness and freestyle scoring in scrambles, and will end a match if given the opportunity. 

5. Snyder. Only here because no one else has claimed the spot with international success yet.  I feel that Kyle is a phenomenal guy and competitor, but his wrestling is pretty one-dimensional compared to the top guys at his weight and p4p.  Very limited in par-terre and scrambling ability.  I think that guys like J.O., Oliver, Yianni, Gwiz, etc are better freestyle wrestlers than him, but the dude is a Champion at the end of the day.

6. Gilman

7. Green

8. Fix

9. Ringer

10. Lee

 

Will finish this later

 

Edited by GoNotQuietly

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1 hour ago, GoNotQuietly said:

Okay, when I do a list like this, I always imagine that everyone magically becomes the same weight and ask myself who has the best wrestling skills and tactics.

1. Cox: Nearly flawless position and match management.  Unreal cool under pressure and uses freakish creativity and athleticism seemingly at will against the best in the world. No glaring weaknesses at all, and 2nd best wrestler in the world to Sadulaev, imo.

2. Dake: p4p to me means the 79kg Dake who obliterates anyone in front of him scoring at will.  Matches are as close as he wants them to be, and every time he needs to go and get one it is nearly instantaneous.  Easily our best guy at going huge for fours or scoring in bunches when he senses a moment of weakness.  Very very rarely breaks position or loses control of the match.  Only real weakness is focusing on/complaining to refs and injuries, which I don't factor here

3. Burroughs.  Best mat IQ and demeanor i have ever seen in my life.  The fact that Sidakov has beaten him twice in the last second is absolutely mindblowing, but no one in the U.S. has his level of clutch, and it isn't particularly close.  Sticks to a strategy and does not deviate or ever think he will lose.  Weakness is he doesn't really wrestle and avoids almost all wrestling in matches; he mostly punches people in the face and destroys them on very clever and amazing reshots/counter shots. He is an underrated scrambler, though, and it does work like a charm, but I won't consider him GOAT.  He is ALWAYS improving though, so I should not understate his evolution.

4. Taylor. The least fun person to wrestle on our team.  He is pulling your head down wearing out your lower back >90% of the match, and cat/mousing you to see where you're open and it just breaks everyone.  Crazy hip awareness and freestyle scoring in scrambles, and will end a match if given the opportunity. 

5. Snyder. 

 

Will finish this later

 

I just can’t put guys in non Olympic weights ahead of those at Olympic weights. Cox and Dake just haven’t faced the competition those others have faced.  

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Hard to do because we don’t know how Taylor will come back after his injury. If he picks up where he left off, I.e red hot, he’s #1 imo. 
 

Before getting injured he was on an absolute tear. Won Yarygin, won worlds, both with stacked weight classes. 2 straight victories over the defending World and Olympic gold medalist Yaz, neither one close. Taylor before his injury was the clear #1 in the world in an Olympic weight class. None of the others can say that. 
 

 

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37 minutes ago, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

I just can’t put guys in non Olympic weights ahead of those at Olympic weights. Cox and Dake just haven’t faced the competition those others have faced.  

Well, they have faced each other, right? Cox leads DT in their series and Dake lags JB in their series. Also, Dake has wrestled at 74 before and has as recently as a couple days ago. He appears to be improving while JB clearly is not. Those are all data points that you can consider, so a forced ranking is not baseless. I’m not agreeing or disagreeing about their placement on any of these lists, just pointing out it’s not being wildass unreasonable to put Cox or Dake over an Olympic weight guy. 

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3 hours ago, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

I just can’t put guys in non Olympic weights ahead of those at Olympic weights. Cox and Dake just haven’t faced the competition those others have faced.  

I hear where you're coming from, but it's p4p and I really think that if you switched which were Olympic Weights and which were non, these guys would absolutely still have medals.  Untestable, obviously, but this is a p4p ranking so it's all subjective anyway.

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On 1/19/2020 at 11:21 AM, Perry said:

Yes, there are a few names not included that do deserve some mention.

 

I do not see how anyone can put Taylor above Burroughs myself. Burroughs has six or so wins head to head with no losses to Taylor and is a 5x world champ/multi time medalist vs Taylor who has won one world title "only"

Except that was Taylor at a different weight and it was also like 5 years ago. Taylor has proven himself to be amongst the best in the world at his weight. That was also while JB was in his prime. Burroughs hasn't been the same since the last Olympics. Which is why he no longer holds the top spot.

 

On 1/19/2020 at 3:15 PM, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

I just can’t put guys in non Olympic weights ahead of those at Olympic weights. Cox and Dake just haven’t faced the competition those others have faced.  

Cox has medaled at that very same weight in the Olympics while still in college and has consistently medaled since then. 

Edited by BTC
Typo

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21 hours ago, Perry said:

I think Gilman goes above Fix and Fix stays above Zane after this weekend. Don't think much else changes really. Colon maybe deserves inclusion higher up?

Why should fix , Zane , Green, Lee, And others even be mentioned in this thread. They still have not proved anything in senior level yet. Yes Green has in the pass, but what happened this past Saturday, To Fix, Zane,Green. these threads are full  B S. U guys don't know what u are talking about. It's done on the mat and bring some hardware home.

Edited by Grave

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38 minutes ago, Grave said:

Why should fix , Zane , Green, Lee, And others even be mentioned in this thread. They still have not proved anything in senior level yet. Yes Green has in the pass, but what happened this past Saturday, To Fix, Zane,Green. these threads are full  B S. U guys don't know what u are talking about. It's done on the mat and bring some hardware home.

Doesn't Green have multiple medals at 70kg? He is a tweener and neither 65 or 74 are good fits for his size. Fix and Lee are multiple time age level world medalists and Fix has beaten SR world medalists. Your take is just terrible and almost as bad as the wrestling knowledge you claim to have.

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15 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Well, they have faced each other, right? Cox leads DT in their series and Dake lags JB in their series. Also, Dake has wrestled at 74 before and has as recently as a couple days ago. He appears to be improving while JB clearly is not. Those are all data points that you can consider, so a forced ranking is not baseless. I’m not agreeing or disagreeing about their placement on any of these lists, just pointing out it’s not being wildass unreasonable to put Cox or Dake over an Olympic weight guy. 

In my mind the Cox Taylor series is 1-1, that third match was a total debacle, also Cox has bronze medals at 86 while Taylor has a gold. It’s also tough for JB to improve when he’s been at the top. He’s been a half second away the last 2 years so staying level is pretty good. Also keep in mind the reason Dake went 79 is because he couldn’t make the team at 74. 

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42 minutes ago, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

In my mind the Cox Taylor series is 1-1, that third match was a total debacle, also Cox has bronze medals at 86 while Taylor has a gold. It’s also tough for JB to improve when he’s been at the top. He’s been a half second away the last 2 years so staying level is pretty good. Also keep in mind the reason Dake went 79 is because he couldn’t make the team at 74. 

That’s fine, and I’m not disputing any of it. My only pint is you can’t automatically say anyone in non-Olympic weights must be below those at Olympic weights. That statement has less basis in reality than any argument to the contrary. 
 

Re: Cox, he was Olympic bronze when DT was a third stringer on the same team. DT only got a chance to win world gold because Cox moved up. That too is an argument to consider, whether you believe it or not. It cannot be proved or disproved, like much of the conjecture here. 

i have no problem with JB over Dake at all. That said, to say JB has stayed the same when he suddenly started having losses on his resume when his track record showed he was too clutch to lose like that in the past, two to the same guy (which he prided himself in never letting happen), and to ignore JB’s own acknowledgement that age and competitors’ adjustments has forced him to adapt (to objectively lesser effect)... well, that’s ignoring reality. JB may very well still beat Dake, but nobody can say with a straight face he’s the same guy or at the same level of superiority over competition now and claim to be anything but biased. 

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Wait until Dake and Cox wrestle Olympic weights. Otherwise I would put them 1 and 2. You have to remember Dake took a match from Cox up two weights! Dake to me is our hands down #1 guy right now. I will be really surprised if Burroughs beats him.  

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