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jackwebster

Marinelli vs White

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Just watched the Iowa/Neb match.

That Marinelli spiral ride is a straight up stall. Granted White didnt do much of anything to get out, but he initiated more action from the bottom than Marinelli did from the top. It's laughable that neither one got a warning. That they didn't and it was in Carver . . . Wtf.

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4 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

Just watched the Iowa/Neb match.

That Marinelli spiral ride is a straight up stall. Granted White didnt do much of anything to get out, but he initiated more action from the bottom than Marinelli did from the top. It's laughable that neither one got a warning. That they didn't and it was in Carver . . . Wtf.

How often does Marinelli get the wrist in that position, bar it up and come out front to get a turn or even a pin? In a vacuum, ok, I can see what you are saying, but Marinelli has consistently used this position to get back points. 

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4 minutes ago, russelscout said:

How often does Marinelli get the wrist in that position, bar it up and come out front to get a turn or even a pin? In a vacuum, ok, I can see what you are saying, but Marinelli has consistently used this position to get back points. 

Like you said, not in this match.

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Just now, jackwebster said:

 

Like you said, not in this match.

Well then I would ask you, what is the difference between this match and the rest of the season? He was wrestling Isaiah White. Definitely a tough out for the Bull, but low scoring matches are pretty typical with the way he wrestles. Simply not scoring is not stalling. If White wants to stay on bottom and not open up, that's on him, but he shouldn't expect to get a stalling call in his favor because of it. 

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5 minutes ago, russelscout said:

How often does Marinelli get the wrist in that position, bar it up and come out front to get a turn or even a pin? In a vacuum, ok, I can see what you are saying, but Marinelli has consistently used this position to get back points. 

I don’t really care either way, but I don’t agree with the argument here. Just because a wrestler “usually” does something from a position, doesn’t mean he should be able to sit in that position in any given match and not be doing anything. A given match is a vacuum. I truly hope refs aren’t watching Marinelli thinking “well usually he uses the wrist here to get a tilt so I’ll let him sit here for 2 minutes and see what happens.” That’s like saying well usually Zahid Valencia shoots a lot and scores a lot of points from neutral, so if he wants to spend an entire 7 minute match without taking a single shot we will give him the benefit of the doubt and not call stalling, even if his opponent is shooting consistently throughout the match.

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3 minutes ago, goheels1812 said:

I don’t really care either way, but I don’t agree with the argument here. Just because a wrestler “usually” does something from a position, doesn’t mean he should be able to sit in that position in any given match and not be doing anything. A given match is a vacuum. I truly hope refs aren’t watching Marinelli thinking “well usually he uses the wrist here to get a tilt so I’ll let him sit here for 2 minutes and see what happens.” That’s like saying well usually Zahid Valencia shoots a lot and scores a lot of points from neutral, so if he wants to spend an entire 7 minute match without taking a single shot we will give him the benefit of the doubt and not call stalling, even if his opponent is shooting consistently throughout the match.

I pretty clearly stated I could see the argument in this match, but the OP said:

22 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

That Marinelli spiral ride is a straight up stall

It seemed to imply that this move, which the Bull uses frequently is a stalling tactic. I disagree.

And its not the same as your argument about Zahid. If Zahid doesn't shoot, he is not using that technique. If Bull doesn't get the wrist and a turn it just means that he was unsuccessful in using the technique. He was still using the spiral ride. Very different. 

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27 minutes ago, russelscout said:

How often does Marinelli get the wrist in that position, bar it up and come out front to get a turn or even a pin? In a vacuum, ok, I can see what you are saying, but Marinelli has consistently used this position to get back points. 

So we're supposed to use a wrestler's previous matches to determine whether said wrestler is stalling in the current one?

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1 minute ago, BigTenFanboy said:

So we're supposed to use a wrestler's previous matches to determine whether said wrestler is stalling in the current one?

I already stated why I said that in my last post. Surprise, surprise. BTFB is being purposefully obtuse to try to discredit something I said. 

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11 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I pretty clearly stated I could see the argument in this match, but the OP said:

It seemed to imply that this move, which the Bull uses frequently is a stalling tactic. I disagree.

And its not the same as your argument about Zahid. If Zahid doesn't shoot, he is not using that technique. If Bull doesn't get the wrist and a turn it just means that he was unsuccessful in using the technique. He was still using the spiral ride. Very different. 

We will just have to agree to disagree. There’s a very very fine line in the Bull using his technique to turn someone and to just hang on top against better opponents. 

I mean we are all biased of the teams we root for. I just think you move the goalposts around quite a bit when it comes to Iowa wrestlers stalling. I have a good example. In the Iowa Nebraska thread you say Desanto wasn’t stalling on bottom because he was building a base and Lovett wasn’t taking any risks to turn him. Okay that’s fine then. But then right here in this thread you say Marinelli shouldn’t be called for stalling for hanging on a wrist for 2 minutes because white wasn’t taking any risks on bottom. 
 

My question for you becomes, when does an Iowa wrestler have to take a risk during mat wrestling? You say you’re content with Desantos forehead in the mat as long as he has a base and Marinelli holding a wrist for 2 minutes because he turns guys that way quite often, so I’m just confused as to when (in your eyes) an Iowa wrestler needs to do more.

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1 minute ago, goheels1812 said:

But then right here in this thread you say Marinelli shouldn’t be called for stalling for hanging on a wrist for 2 minutes because white wasn’t taking any risks on bottom. 

Where did I say that? 
 

1 minute ago, goheels1812 said:

My question for you becomes, when does an Iowa wrestler have to take a risk during mat wrestling? You say you’re content with Desantos forehead in the mat as long as he has a base and Marinelli holding a wrist for 2 minutes because he turns guys that way quite often, so I’m just confused as to when (in your eyes) an Iowa wrestler needs to do more.

Desanto clearly made attempts to get away, but its not so easy to get out when you have your arms behind your back and fighting off forward pressure. Could he have been hit for stalling? Sure, but it wouldn't have changed the outcome. Marinelli may have been content to ride, but even the OP said: 

46 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

White didnt do much of anything to get out

This is pretty consistently how this has been called in college wrestling. If you don't like that, then your issue should be with the refs and rules because pretty routinely the guy on bottom is the first to be hit for stalling. Would you disagree?  

I don't see the reason for outrage in the Iowa vs Nebby match as it seemed pretty consistent. 

To answer your question:
 

10 minutes ago, goheels1812 said:

My question for you becomes, when does an Iowa wrestler have to take a risk during mat wrestling?

When it makes sense to. Just because it is Iowa, doesn't mean Marinelli should be sacrificing a win to try and hit the home run pin. He wrestles by the same rules as everyone else, and I am sure there are at least a dozen other matches with a guy content to ride this weekend and wasn't hit for stalling. Where is the outrage in these matches? The expectations are set by the refs all season long, and I just don't see where this isn't consistent with nearly every other dual we see. Nebby fans crying because of homerism in Carver? Please, they got whooped and they would have gotten whooped in Lincoln too.

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9 minutes ago, jackwebster said:
  On 1/18/2020 at 10:01 PM, russelscout said:

When a bottom guy is not able to get out, is losing riding time and getting hit for stalling, I dont think that is good thing in general. You are rewarding the top guy too much when he is making little effort to turn.

Whats your point? I don't think its good to constantly hit the bottom guy with stalling if he is getting worked. I have not back tracked at all from this position.

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18 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I already stated why I said that in my last post. Surprise, surprise. BTFB is being purposefully obtuse to try to discredit something I said. 

You discredit yourself, by saying "in a vacuum."

Ironic how you need to insult me calling me "obtuse", which typically means you're wrong. Way to fall into the typical "Angry Iowan," stereotype. I always thought you were one of the few who were above that nonsense. I guess I was wrong. 

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3 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Where did I say that? 
 

Desanto clearly made attempts to get away, but its not so easy to get out when you have your arms behind your back and fighting off forward pressure. Could he have been hit for stalling? Sure, but it wouldn't have changed the outcome. Marinelli may have been content to ride, but even the OP said: 

This is pretty consistently how this has been called in college wrestling. If you don't like that, then your issue should be with the refs and rules because pretty routinely the guy on bottom is the first to be hit for stalling. Would you disagree?  

I don't see the reason for outrage in the Iowa vs Nebby match as it seemed pretty consistent. 

To answer your question:
 

When it makes sense to. Just because it is Iowa, doesn't mean Marinelli should be sacrificing a win to try and hit the home run pin. He wrestles by the same rules as everyone else, and I am sure there are at least a dozen other matches with a guy content to ride this weekend and wasn't hit for stalling. Where is the outrage in these matches? The expectations are set by the refs all season long, and I just don't see where this isn't consistent with nearly every other dual we see. Nebby fans crying because of homerism in Carver? Please, they got whooped and they would have gotten whooped in Lincoln too.

You said “white didn’t open up”. That’s the same as saying he didn’t take a risk. But I think we’ve reached a point where you’re so caught up in being “right” that you can’t see when other people have a valid point regarding Iowa. And that’s fine. Fan is short for fanatic. We wouldn’t be here if we didn’t love our teams and love wrestling. 
 

I’ll now go back to the very first thing I said in this thread “I don’t really care either way” and excuse myself from arguing about two teams that I don’t really root for lol. 

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1 minute ago, BigTenFanboy said:

You discredit yourself, by saying "in a vacuum."

Ironic how you need to insult me calling me "obtuse", which typically means you're wrong. Way to fall into the typical "Angry Iowan," stereotype. I always thought you were one of the few who were above that nonsense. I guess I was wrong. 

No that's not what obtuse means, and being purposefully obtuse is a pretty common tactic to avoid the actual points being made when you don't know how to deal with them with an actual critique. This is usually the way you engage in debate with me. You consistently avoid the discussion by trying to discredit me, or turn the convo into something that it is not. 

Angry Iowan? Once again, just a way to discredit my opinion by suggesting I am a stereotype, but I will play. Why would I be angry? Iowa  beat up on Nebraska and I am happy about it. Just because I want to call out those who are whining about their team losing, doesn't mean I am angry.

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Ok, having rewatched the Marinelli-White match, what probably saved Marinelli from a stall call was the fact that he was mostly on his toes (EDIT:  and off the hips), and returned White quickly when he stood up, but I probably would have hit him with one with about :30 left in the period.

Edited by VakAttack

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3 minutes ago, goheels1812 said:

You said “white didn’t open up”. That’s the same as saying he didn’t take a risk. But I think we’ve reached a point where you’re so caught up in being “right” that you can’t see when other people have a valid point regarding Iowa. And that’s fine. Fan is short for fanatic. We wouldn’t be here if we didn’t love our teams and love wrestling. 
 

I’ll now go back to the very first thing I said in this thread “I don’t really care either way” and excuse myself from arguing about two teams that I don’t really root for lol. 

Whats wrong with saying White didn't open up? Even the OP said that.

What is the point regarding Iowa? That they wrestle under the same rules as everyone else? 

Nevermind the desperate attempt to discredit me as a fanatic while you try to mosey on out instead of sticking to the actual debate. Where was Iowa gifted favoritism that is out of line with the rest of the duals this weekend because I am having a real hard time seeing it. 

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I always find stalling on the mat hard to determine. I see a guy on top with an arm bar and boots in and I hear people call for a stall on the bottom guy and think what do you want him to do. Same on top. I saw a guy this summer tried three times before he turned an unconscious Brady Berge at Under 23's Turning a guy isn't as easy as it seems.

My biggest stalling gripe is from neutral or a wrestler engaging in funk. If a wrestler hits a single but the opponent reaches over and grabs the others ankles and just holds on for a stalemate that to me is blatant stalling. Too much time is wasted in matches in these positions. I would like to see officials call the stalemate instantly or start handing out stall calls.

Sorry, back to the thread in questions.

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The answer here is somewhere in the middle.   Those calling for stalling are definitely not Iowa fans at the least and may have some true Iowa dislike added in.  Those not calling for stalling seem to be Iowa fan(s).  Now, I am an Iowa fan, but a fan of wrestling more.  As such, I think DeSanto should have been hit for stalling at least once.  I don't think his stalling was egregious, but he seemed to be more or less trying to not get flattened out and turned vs. truly trying to escape.  To me, when you are not constantly working to improve from top OR bottom, if one guy is making that effort considerably more, stalling can, and often should, come into play.

Now, as far as Marinelli goes, White's lack of activity makes it harder for me to call Marinelli for stalling.  Now, if you wanted a double stall call, I could see that.  But, White wasn't doing enough to place the onus on Marinelli.  Stalling SHOULD be about 1 guy doing way less than the other, if it is only going to be called on 1 guy.  As such, I wouldn't have called stalling on Marinelli as he was constantly moving on top to the point that White was moving less......

Edited by MSU158

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1 minute ago, russelscout said:

Whats wrong with saying White didn't open up? Even the OP said that.

What is the point regarding Iowa? That they wrestle under the same rules as everyone else? 

Nevermind the desperate attempt to discredit me as a fanatic while you try to mosey on out instead of sticking to the actual debate. Where was Iowa gifted favoritism that is out of line with the rest of the duals this weekend because I am having a real hard time seeing it. 

Are you as dense in real life as you are on a message board? I mean seriously man. Here’s the points you’ve made in this thread.

1) Marinelli usually turns people from the top position he was in so it shouldn’t be called stalling in any match when he gets there. (That might be one of the worst takes I’ve ever read on this board, so congrats there.)

2) You said White didn’t open up then questioned where I saw you say White didn’t take a risk. Open up = take risk. Which can lead us to point #3

3) The onus is only on Iowa opponents to “open up” or “take risks” or however you want to phrase it this time. Iowa guys are fine to sit there doing nothing as long as their opponents are taking a risk. 
 

Another Iowa fan, @VakAttack, who’s actually a reasonable Iowa poster even said Marinelli should’ve been dinged for stalling.

You want to know why I recused myself kindly? Because I didn’t feel the need to point out how low IQ you are when it comes to posting about Iowa wrestling. But here we are. 

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24 minutes ago, goheels1812 said:

Are you as dense in real life as you are on a message board? I mean seriously man. Here’s the points you’ve made in this thread.

Pretty much. Im just the worse.
 

24 minutes ago, goheels1812 said:

1) Marinelli usually turns people from the top position he was in so it shouldn’t be called stalling in any match when he gets there. (That might be one of the worst takes I’ve ever read on this board, so congrats there.)

Didn't say that. In my 2nd post I actually said I could see it in this match. Do you need me to go over that again. You are clinging on to this part even though I have already addressed it.

 

24 minutes ago, goheels1812 said:

2) You said White didn’t open up then questioned where I saw you say White didn’t take a risk. Open up = take risk. Which can lead us to point #3

I also not once said Marinelli couldn't have been hit for stalling which is the point you were trying to make. My point was that Marinelli could have been, but for him not to be is not out of line with the way it has been called by refs.

 

24 minutes ago, goheels1812 said:

3) The onus is only on Iowa opponents to “open up” or “take risks” or however you want to phrase it this time. Iowa guys are fine to sit there doing nothing as long as their opponents are taking a risk. 

 No, didn't say that Iowa guys couldn't be hit for stalling. I said that if the other person is not doing anything either, why should it be the Iowa guy getting hit because that seems to be the complaint here between White and Marinelli.  I am not beating the drum for Nebby guys to get hit for stalling. The point of this thread is complaining about IOWA not getting hit with stalling bc of favoritism or because of homerism. I don't see that. I don't see where these matches were reffed differently than what we have seen all season. 

 

24 minutes ago, goheels1812 said:

Another Iowa fan, @VakAttack, who’s actually a reasonable Iowa poster even said Marinelli should’ve been dinged for stalling.

You want to know why I recused myself kindly? Because I didn’t feel the need to point out how low IQ you are when it comes to posting about Iowa wrestling. But here we are. 

Good for Vak. I never said that Marinelli absolutely couldn't have been hit for stalling.

Feel free to point out my low IQ. I would be curious how you would go about doing it without taking my comments out of context and ignoring what I actually said. 

The point I am arguing against is that Iowa received some kind of favoritism in these matches. Do you really believe that? Do you think these refs did such a bad job in this dual or was it a non issue?

Edited by russelscout

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1 hour ago, jackwebster said:

Just watched the Iowa/Neb match.

That Marinelli spiral ride is a straight up stall. Granted White didnt do much of anything to get out, but he initiated more action from the bottom than Marinelli did from the top. It's laughable that neither one got a warning. That they didn't and it was in Carver . . . Wtf.

This is when I piss everyone off by asking if you've ever wrestled before.....

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