Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
jackwebster

Marinelli vs White

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, MSU158 said:

He did not JUST stay stationary that whole time he was putting CONSIDERABLE amount of pressure forward and on White's head.  However, again, White is VERY solid at holding his base, which is why I called for a possible double stall.  For much of that time, BOTH guys were content to maintain their position.............

So when Chris Perry was applying a considerable amount of pressure on wrestler x with his side head lock, it wasn't straight up stalling? Of course it was. That's why they changed the rule..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

Loling and ad hominem attacks on other posters won't change the fact that someone just dismissed the possibility that Marinelli might be stalling because he was "applying pressure."

BTW the whole "how many years have you been wrestling?" thing isn't even intimidating in elementary school. 

I wasn't trying to intimidate you, just trying to figure out the nature of your ignorance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

So when Chris Perry was applying a considerable amount of pressure on wrestler x with his side head lock, it wasn't straight up stalling? Of course it was. That's why they changed the rule..

Super poor example considering they are completing different positions with completely different objectives. If you understand a spiral ride, you would understand my point regarding forward pressure.   But, your example shows you don’t and makes this pointless....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, MSU158 said:

Super poor example considering they are completing different positions with completely different objectives. If you understand a spiral ride, you would understand my point regarding forward pressure.   But, your example shows you don’t and makes this pointless....

What part of "spiral" dont you understand? It ain't just forward.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

What part of "spiral" dont you understand? It ain't just forward.

Ok, explain how a “spiral” ride is executed at the college level, especially when the bottom guy is strictly maintaining his base. Also, make sure the example you use is a guy that has arms proportional to his body......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

Nice tu quoque. White was stalling, too.

If thats the case marinelli was working a lot harder and white should have been hit....Marinelli is entitled to ride however he wants, if White refuses to counter its on him.

Edited by hammerlockthree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Ok, explain how a “spiral” ride is executed at the college level, especially when the bottom guy is strictly maintaining his base. Also, make sure the example you use is a guy that has arms proportional to his body......

John Smith explains it here: John Smith   Top Pressure With Spiral
https://youtu.be/OtoUccN0sxs

Most of his guys do it like Coleman Scott does in this early match:   https://www.flowrestling.org/video/5083157-133lbs-coleman-scott

Esposito, Morgan, Perry, Ringer, Lewis, Pendleton, the mighty Klimara etc, etc all have the same motion . And if you dismiss it because the cowboys suck at riding, Cooperman and Fleeger do it the same way. Even Tony Nelson has a tech video showing the same lateral, "spiral" pressure. 

Edited by jackwebster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Super poor example considering they are completing different positions with completely different objectives. If you understand a spiral ride, you would understand my point regarding forward pressure.   But, your example shows you don’t and makes this pointless....

Hey, don't get me wrong. The stall-quotient of Marinelli's ride here doesn't come close to that of Borshell's vs Henrich.

https://iowa.forums.rivals.com/threads/best-comeback-win.298935/page-2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

I like how you ignore others arguments and insert links to fight for you....

You are arguing in bad faith: first you claim that my points can be dismissed because I don't have the authority to make them. Then when I enlist folks whose authority cannot be questioned to make the exact same points I was trying to make in the first place, you dismiss them because apparently I am only allowed to argue from my own authority.

Here's what I saw: In the second period, White chooses bottom. Most of the time, he sits there holding his base, butt up/ hands in/elbows out/ forearms on the mat/head both on and off the mat. Marinelli works on a spiral, claw, and western hook. His head is in the back of White's and applies forward pressure to keep weight on White's hands. Periodically, Marinelli will lift the western hook to keep the weight forward. If White  breaks down to an elbow, Marinelli will reach for a wrist; if White fights back up to his hands, Marinelli will go back to the claw. A couple of times, White gets to his feet and there follows a brutal return. A couple of times, White crawls out of bounds for a restart. Repeat for the duration of the 2nd period. Marinelli keeps his hips glued to White's. To me it looks like he is just riding. He is not leaving the hips. He is just waiting to return White when he stands up.

If Marinelli were using the spiral to break White down in an attempt to turn him, he would have run his hips out to the side, i.e. run the "spiral" (as demonstrated in the above links; here's another from Nick Simmons). But he did not. 

Conclusion: As I said in my first post, both Marinelli and White were stalling . I am surprised that in CHA, you know the gym with a that statue of the angry guy out front, no one was hit.   

  

Edited by jackwebster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If neither guy is doing anything to improve, either call it a stalemate and give a verbal warning to both guys, or just let the clock tick away.  Ref in this situation chose the latter.  It's so frustrating watching White...he is evenly matched with or even better than everyone on his feet, but loses matches on the mat to Cenzo and Marinelli every time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

You are arguing in bad faith: first you claim that my points can be dismissed because I don't have the authority to make them. Then when I enlist folks whose authority cannot be questioned to make the exact same points I was trying to make in the first place, you dismiss them because apparently I am only allowed to argue from my own authority.

Here's what I saw: In the second period, White chooses bottom. Most of the time, he sits there holding his base, butt up/ hands in/elbows out/ forearms on the mat/head both on and off the mat. Marinelli works on a spiral, claw, and western hook. His head is in the back of White's and applies forward pressure to keep weight on White's hands. Periodically, Marinelli will lift the western hook to keep the weight forward. If White  breaks down to an elbow, Marinelli will reach for a wrist; if White fights back up to his hands, Marinelli will go back to the claw. A couple of times, White gets to his feet and there follows a brutal return. A couple of times, White crawls out of bounds for a restart. Repeat for the duration of the 2nd period. Marinelli keeps his hips glued to White's. To me it looks like he is just riding. He is not leaving the hips. He is just waiting to return White when he stands up.

If Marinelli were using the spiral to break White down in an attempt to turn him, he would have run his hips out to the side, i.e. run the "spiral" (as demonstrated in the above links; here's another from Nick Simmons). But he did not. 

Conclusion: As I said in my first post, both Marinelli and White were stalling . I am surprised that in CHA, you know the gym with a that statue of the angry guy out front, no one was hit.   

  

This video actually applies reasonably well.  The John Smith video DOES NOT.  In fact, the John Smith video is as loose  as a spiral can get and I don't see that used almost ever at a high DI level, nor was it how Marinelli applied it.

Also, what you said in this reply is that BOTH are stalling, which I SAID from the beginning.  However, you either call both or NEITHER. 

 As far as forward pressure goes, my POINT was that it was enough action to force White to AT LEAST equal it.  The point I keep saying you are missing is that stalling against ONLY 1 guy has to be that 1 guy doing considerably less than the other.  

As I was trying to point out, by applying the forward pressure, he is AT LEAST now putting the onus on White to do something other than just hold his base.  Also, when you do have a deep spiral ride with the trail hand on the inside of the thigh, IF you have the top hand in a deep half or "hook/claw"  you would then HAVE to come off the spiral OR the half/hook/claw to come around.  With both arms tight in that position, with considerable pressure and extension, your hips have a very limited range left to them.

That was my secondary point to that position.  When fully applying it, as Marinelli was, it would actually require him to COME OFF that position to move anything more than the heavy forward pressure he was applying.  As such, I don't think he would be required to until White made enough counter movement for Marinelli to transition from that position......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Man I think White is getting a bad deal in this thread.  Sure he wasn't being super aggressive, but he got up to his feet several times and ultimately did escape.   Did Marinelli ever even break him down to his belly other than on the mat returns after White got to his feet (honest question, I don't remember)?

I know this has no bearing on getting hit for stalling but he really had no incentive to stall there.   He chose down in the 2nd, and basically lost the match because he got ridden out that whole period and then wasn't able to escape until there was short time left in the 3rd. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Super poor example considering they are completing different positions with completely different objectives. If you understand a spiral ride, you would understand my point regarding forward pressure.   But, your example shows you don’t and makes this pointless....

The more I think about it, the better this example seems to work. The side head lock can be used to turn (e.g. Simmons weirdo roll-through below); but, Chris Perry's side headlock was a stall ride. Likewise, the spiral can be used to turn, e.g. the far-side claw tilt that Simmons shows in the video above; but Marinelli had no intention of attempting a turn in this match. He rode with his left knee up the butt the entire time. His left hip never came out to the side; he never put his left knee in front of White's right quad. Anytime the lock got a little loose, he circled completely behind White, cinched up the claw, buried his head, and fished for the western hook. 

https://www.flowrestling.org/video/5227762-nick-simmons-ankle-trap-roll-through-half 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, jackwebster said:

You are arguing in bad faith: first you claim that my points can be dismissed because I don't have the authority to make them. Then when I enlist folks whose authority cannot be questioned to make the exact same points I was trying to make in the first place, you dismiss them because apparently I am only allowed to argue from my own authority.

Here's what I saw: In the second period, White chooses bottom. Most of the time, he sits there holding his base, butt up/ hands in/elbows out/ forearms on the mat/head both on and off the mat. Marinelli works on a spiral, claw, and western hook. His head is in the back of White's and applies forward pressure to keep weight on White's hands. Periodically, Marinelli will lift the western hook to keep the weight forward. If White  breaks down to an elbow, Marinelli will reach for a wrist; if White fights back up to his hands, Marinelli will go back to the claw. A couple of times, White gets to his feet and there follows a brutal return. A couple of times, White crawls out of bounds for a restart. Repeat for the duration of the 2nd period. Marinelli keeps his hips glued to White's. To me it looks like he is just riding. He is not leaving the hips. He is just waiting to return White when he stands up.

If Marinelli were using the spiral to break White down in an attempt to turn him, he would have run his hips out to the side, i.e. run the "spiral" (as demonstrated in the above links; here's another from Nick Simmons). But he did not. 

Conclusion: As I said in my first post, both Marinelli and White were stalling . I am surprised that in CHA, you know the gym with a that statue of the angry guy out front, no one was hit.   

  

you still totally wrong but thanks for posting the video I enjoyed it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/20/2020 at 1:22 PM, JeanGuy said:

I always find stalling on the mat hard to determine. I see a guy on top with an arm bar and boots in and I hear people call for a stall on the bottom guy and think what do you want him to do. Same on top. I saw a guy this summer tried three times before he turned an unconscious Brady Berge at Under 23's Turning a guy isn't as easy as it seems.

My biggest stalling gripe is from neutral or a wrestler engaging in funk. If a wrestler hits a single but the opponent reaches over and grabs the others ankles and just holds on for a stalemate that to me is blatant stalling. Too much time is wasted in matches in these positions. I would like to see officials call the stalemate instantly or start handing out stall calls.

Sorry, back to the thread in questions.

The other clear stall to me is hanging on a leg (in neutral) with zero intent to finish.  If you're fighting off a takedown I don't think it's stalling, but if you're just trying to kill time...

Considering how easy it is to get dinged for an edge stall when you're not stalling at all, I can't believe some of the obvious stalls that are never called.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/20/2020 at 2:18 PM, MSU158 said:

I was a leg rider and disagree strongly that Lovett wasn't doing a whole lot.  He was working HARD!  It just takes a longer time to wear someone down with legs because you aren't out the side solely solely putting weight on the limb you are trying to turn.  DeSanto was very limited in his action towards actually escaping.  To me, he looked like he was simply trying to stay off his belly and not get turned.

When it comes to Marinelli I don't know how he was stalling there without White equally doing so.  It is NOT about being "opened up", it is about solid effort to IMPROVE your position.  When both seem at a stand still in this category, like I think they were for most of the 2nd period, I don't see how 1 was stalling more than the other.  To me, they both had about equal lengths where I saw no true effort to improve position, so I would either call it on both or not at all..........

Had White hustled a bit more from bottom, Bull probably would've been hit.

I also suspect reputations do come into play at times, whether they should or not, and Marinelli simply isn't perceived as a staller.  I wouldn't be surprised if his reputation as an always attacking hammer sometimes plays into refs' decisions, and I can't really fault them for it.

In high school, I got caught blatantly staring down the clock, obviously willing it to move faster, from bottom with a point lead in the third, and for the rest of the year, I got hit with more stall calls than ever before.

About the Marinelli/White more generally, the latter will likely never be in a better position to beat Bull, and I wonder whether the moment just got too big for him.  Up 2-0 after one is a bigger lead than it seems, but when he couldn't get out quickly in the second, I pretty much knew how it was going to play out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, jackwebster said:

This thread is sorta hilarious.Since NCAA's and the Olympics were cx'ed, I don't stop by here much. Now, I show up and people are having the same arguments they were having in 2000. What a bunch of idiots.

Thank god you came back and graced us with such a great post. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/20/2020 at 10:03 AM, jackwebster said:

Just watched the Iowa/Neb match.

That Marinelli spiral ride is a straight up stall. Granted White didnt do much of anything to get out, but he initiated more action from the bottom than Marinelli did from the top. It's laughable that neither one got a warning. That they didn't and it was in Carver . . . Wtf.

The spiral ride is always a stall. On very rare occasions a guy won't know how to counter and will eventually get flipped over and pinned. Remember how good Tony Nelson was with it? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, jackwebster said:

This thread is sorta hilarious.Since NCAA's and the Olympics were cx'ed, I don't stop by here much. Now, I show up and people are having the same arguments they were having in 2000. What a bunch of idiots.

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out, and feel free to come back and visit in another 20 years. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...