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Who is still taking burroughs over Dake?

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26 minutes ago, GoNotQuietly said:

I think Dake is a better wrestler, but Burroughs is better at winning.  I won't pick against Burroughs to make a team until he doesn't make a team, and not a second earlier.

I am gonna go ahead and call that a dumb comment. Dake is the best at winning. Dake doesn't blow leads in the final seconds against anyone, let alone the same guy twice in the same way,

Edited by hammerlockthree

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31 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

I am gonna go ahead and call that a dumb comment. Dake is the best at winning. Dake doesn't blow leads in the final seconds against anyone, let alone the same guy twice in the same way,

Jordan Burroughs is probably 60 something wins versus a handful of losses in tight matches in the past decade... including over Kyle Dake...what are you talking about? 

Edited by GoNotQuietly
His total record is 186-8...

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17 minutes ago, GoNotQuietly said:

Jordan Burroughs is probably 60 something wins versus a handful of losses in tight matches in the past decade... including over Kyle Dake...what are you talking about? 

Better at wrestling vs better at winning. Burroughs has blown two matches late in the last two worlds.....Dake hasn't been touched. 

Dake is tactically superior.

Edited by hammerlockthree

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7 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

Better at wrestling vs better at winning. Burroughs has blown two matches late in the last two worlds.....Dake hasn't been touched. 

Dake is tactically superior.

Dake is absolutely not tactically superior to Burroughs.  Maybe you could make the argument that Sidakov is tactically superior to Burroughs, but Dake hasn't seen anyone like that aside from Burroughs and Cox, who he lost to, and Tsargush who Burroughs also beat.

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2 minutes ago, GoNotQuietly said:

Dake is absolutely not tactically superior to Burroughs.  Maybe you could make the argument that Sidakov is tactically superior to Burroughs, but Dake hasn't seen anyone like that aside from Burroughs and Cox, who he lost to, and Tsargush who Burroughs also beat.

No sidakov isn't, he just shoots an outside step HC and Burroughs can't figure it out. 

Do you think Dake is better at wrestling than Taylor? No only an idiot would say that, Dake is better at winning though.

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I’m an idiot who thinks Dake is better at wrestling than DT. He’s obviously better at winning too, but he keeps better position more consistently than DT and is just a better athlete which factors into his higher effectiveness too. 

I also think it’s very fair to use the last few years in which both JB and Dake have been on the team to conclude that Dake may be better at winning (“tactics”, IQ, whatever you want to call it), and the separation JB and Dake had was attributable to JB being a better wrestler (and  maybe having a similar athletic edge as Dake over DT). Maybe age has diminished or erased that edge, maybe Dake improved technically while JB did not or JB only improved tactically (where he never had a big edge), ... but I agree it’s hard to say JB has been a better winner than Dake since the last Olympics. It’s not just his losses, but also several of his wins (the wild match before the second Sidakov loss, the match versus bumped up Franklin Gomez, etc.). Dake did wrestle a weaker weight but I don’t think he would’ve lost to Imart or been in serious danger of losing to a few of JB’s close calls either—which matters when assessing tactics. And most recently, Dake did go without giving up anything but an occasional push out at 74 and made a very good medalist look like a third string college folkstyle wrestler, so he’s certainly not out of place at 74.

As for a pick, my head says Dake but I cannot take that leap given their history and am forced to pick JB by the slimmest possible margin. I would like to be wrong because I think we have a better shot at gold with Dake this year (JB was clearly better the other times he beat Dake). 

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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I want Burroughs to win, but I think Dake is better at this point and will probably win.  With that said, Burroughs has an X-factor that is matched by few athletes that I've ever seen-he has an incredible ability to find an extra gear when you think he's done. It's some combination of clutch/heart/conditioning/staying calm under pressure that is incredible.  So I think the magnitude of that match favors Burroughs despite Dake likely being better....So in conclusion-I really have no idea. 

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18 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I’m an idiot who thinks Dake is better at wrestling than DT. He’s obviously better at winning too, but he keeps better position more consistently than DT and is just a better athlete which factors into his higher effectiveness too. 

I also think it’s very fair to use the last few years in which both JB and Dake have been on the team to conclude that Dake may be better at winning (“tactics”, IQ, whatever you want to call it), and the separation JB and Dake had was attributable to JB being a better wrestler (and  maybe having a similar athletic edge as Dake over DT). Maybe age has diminished or erased that edge, maybe Dake improved technically while JB did not or JB only improved tactically (where he never had a big edge), ... but I agree it’s hard to say JB has been a better winner than Dake since the last Olympics. It’s not just his losses, but also several of his wins (the wild match before the second Sidakov loss, the match versus bumped up Franklin Gomez, etc.). Dake did wrestle a weaker weight but I don’t think he would’ve lost to Imart or been in serious danger of losing to a few of JB’s close calls either—which matters when assessing tactics. And most recently, Dake did go without giving up anything but an occasional push out at 74 and made a very good medalist look like a third string college folkstyle wrestler, so he’s certainly not out of place at 74.

As for a pick, my head says Dake but I cannot take that leap given their history and am forced to pick JB by the slimmest possible margin. I would like to be wrong because I think we have a better shot at gold with Dake this year (JB was clearly better the other times he beat Dake). 

talk about squeezing a lot of words into a small thought.......

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1 hour ago, Billyhoyle said:

I want Burroughs to win, but I think Dake is better at this point and will probably win.  With that said, Burroughs has an X-factor that is matched by few athletes that I've ever seen-he has an incredible ability to find an extra gear when you think he's done. It's some combination of clutch/heart/conditioning/staying calm under pressure that is incredible.  So I think the magnitude of that match favors Burroughs despite Dake likely being better....So in conclusion-I really have no idea. 

It’s kind of like that KenPom stat, “luck” - the deviation between actual record vs. expected record, or his probability of winning at any given point in a match. JB’s “luck” rating is through the roof.

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8 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

No sidakov isn't, he just shoots an outside step HC and Burroughs can't figure it out. 

Do you think Dake is better at wrestling than Taylor? No only an idiot would say that, Dake is better at winning though.

Only an idiot would say that Dake is not better at wrestling than Taylor. The guy who is best at winning wrestling matches is the better wrestler. 

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Back to topic... I’ll pick JB although I am not very confident. JB has won a ton of matches with last second takedowns. The two last second takedowns he gave up against Sidakov just stick in your head because they were so similar and the most recent. That doesn’t change how many he won. Dake just hasn’t had as many matches and hasn’t wrestled nearly as many top guys as JB. Dake did lose in close 3rd matches to both JB and Cox. So there are examples of when he wasn’t “clutch” as well. When you wrestle enough top guys you are going to lose some

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Some good threads have popped up during my hiatus (don't ask :) ) but......

I still got JB. I scrolled through a lot of valid points, and  the only one that really rubbed me wrong was JB's 2 losses to Sidakov means Dake is better because he did not lose to Hasanov... I don't quite understand that one. I will say this though:
Dake is better at dominating guys he is better than. Although I love JB and I think he wins, I think he has lost some "fire" in this sense.... he lacks that "I don't know where I stand against this guy, I better score as much as possible" mindset......  he's like, "if it comes down to it, I will win in the end" and I think that causes some deception as to his abilities.

Again. Yes he has lost  to Sidakov and yes Dake had a great finals here, but this shouldn't have changed anything for anyone, unless you thought the cut would really harm Dake, then now you know it wont.

Yall are crazy

Edit* Dake is defensively superior.... I will give you that... never gives up big points

Edited by spladle08

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11 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

Do you think Dake is better at wrestling than Taylor? No only an idiot would say that, Dake is better at winning though.

This is one of the dumbest comments I've read on this forum. Dake is a about 1 million to nothing against Taylor. He is better at wrestling. He is not flashier than Taylor. But he is demonstrably the better wrestler. Winning is part of being a good wrestler. Some would even say the most important part. Except maybe Taylor fans. And then being flashy and undefeated in fantasy matches is the most important part.

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1 hour ago, DuckFor2 said:

even though Dake looks as muscular as I've ever seen him. JB.

 

https://unitedworldwrestling.org/sites/default/files/styles/max_2600_3_2/public/2020-01/74kg - Kyle Douglas DAKE (USA) df. Soner DEMIRTAS (TUR) 31748.JPG?itok=oDy0qvmV

74kg%20-%20Kyle%20Douglas%20DAKE%20(USA)

 

Yes indeed.  He always looked like he had little definition.  Not in this action picture.  Even so, I am taking JB for this weight.

mspart

Edited by mspart

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