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Joe Smith the purest example of burnout?

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1 hour ago, Janderson133 said:

I haven't followed it super closely, but doesn't Ok St have other guys wrestling less than ideal weights to make room for Joe at 174? Seemed like it used to be about having a stronger dual team, but that seems like a lost cause.

I typed a long response to this, highlighting how I can see these concessions being made to a Senior year "Metcalf" and not a shell of Joe Smith, but its easier to just say.
"Wish he would've stuck with it, sucks to see the current J.S."
 

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2 hours ago, Janderson133 said:

I haven't followed it super closely, but doesn't Ok St have other guys wrestling less than ideal weights to make room for Joe at 174? Seemed like it used to be about having a stronger dual team, but that seems like a lost cause.

No

Do you think giving away both 197 & 285 would make for a stronger dual team, while having a kid like Montalvo riding the bench? The Fr are gaining experience that they wouldn't get in the practice room while still capable of winning duals.

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6 hours ago, Antitroll2828 said:

In the beginning of the season Nelson brands beat colbray and went from unranked to 8 and was being billed as the next big thing, joe smith beats colbray and there is a whole thread about how he doesn’t care and should just walk away, maybe he’s just working his way back into shape. I agree the UNI match was ugly but it was only his 4th match this year and he got it done today

Colbray is bad, so limited on offense and now sucking weight it is even worse.

Edited by BLT

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5 hours ago, Class of 1970 said:

What was Roger Moore alluding to when talking about Kaden Gfeller right before the ISU match? He said, "go do your homework, find out about Gefeller. Dusty Hone will be at this weight the rest of the season." Does this suggest that Gfeller is in the doghouse for skipping classes or his grades dropped below the acceptable level to wrestle? Sure sounds like it. 

OSU board indicated something about gfeller and Smith having the same issues and linked problems to a 125 pound back up on the team stating "parents talk".

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10 hours ago, ionel said:

No

Do you think giving away both 197 & 285 would make for a stronger dual team, while having a kid like Montalvo riding the bench? The Fr are gaining experience that they wouldn't get in the practice room while still capable of winning duals.

I was not implying that it actually made for a stronger dual team, just that they'd given that explanation for the weight juggling in the past.

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16 hours ago, goheels1812 said:

Let me clarify my above post before this thread roasts me into oblivion. I don’t think it’s a bad thing at all to finish what you start whether you’re a grown man or a young kid. BUT I also think mental health and doing what you love is important. AND I think it’s important to finish without interfering with others living out their dreams. Aka chandler Rogers. Lets just think about, who deserves to finish their dream of wrestling in college more: chandler or joe? Because Chandler got absolutely railroaded by John Smith/Okie State in that situation. And that was an awful way for his career to finish. So there we have an example where Joe is maybe or maybe not being forced to “finish what he started” and directly screwing over a kid who actually wanted to be there. 

 Can you explain further? As I recall they had to wrestle off, And Rogers lost two straight matches decisively.   Admittedly, he does seem to have been a better game day player.

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Remember, JoJo’s RS was unexpectedly burned his freshman year. That was supposed to be the year Joe would settle into college and D1 wrestling; neither he nor John expected him to compete his true freshman year but he was thrown into the water and asked to swim when Marsteller began having trouble.

Also ppl had sky high expectations for Joe, like bc of his lineage he would be a 4x title winner or something. I think he won Big 12s his first year but got pinned early at Nationals and a bunch of fans were really let down. He was carrying a lot of weight on his shoulders. I don’t recall why he took his RS in his junior year, like if it was a HEW break or what.

Whatever the case, I think Joe is caught in the crossfire of his parents, his legacy, what’s right for the team, and what’s right for himself. I pluralized parents bc John Smith mentioned in interviews before that he wants to do what’s best for the team but also has to figure out how to get Joe into the lineup so his wife won’t yell at them. That might explain some of the Chandler Rogers postseason decisioning.

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Joe Smith is burned out and is not a good wrestler right now.  He wasn't great and was in terrible shape last year.  This isn't up for debate.

But some people are looking at these facts and creating the narrative that Rogers got cheated last year.  I would have preferred Rogers wrestle and think it was a bad decision to go with Joe, but Rogers has only himself to blame for it.  He had a bad senior season.  His best win all season was Connor Flynn and he lost to Ashworth and Finesilver.  Then he lost multiple wrestle off matches to Joe Smith.  Smith wasn't great last year but he had far superior wins entering the postseason.  I still would have chosen Rogers over Smith because he'd have likely scored a few bonus on his way to a 1-2 or 2-2 tournament, but it wasn't some travesty that an underperforming guy was left out of the lineup after losing a wrestle off.  

Edited by boconnell

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I heard that Joe didn't start wrestling until he was 10 and John didn't really get involved until high school.

Maybe he never had it because if that is all true, burnout/HEW doesn't seem like the culprit.

Edited by Boompa

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3 hours ago, Cradle1 said:

 Can you explain further? As I recall they had to wrestle off, And Rogers lost two straight matches decisively.   Admittedly, he does seem to have been a better game day player.

Sure I’d love to. Chandler was a returning 2 time all American for the team that was 17-3 on the season. He would have been appropriately seeded in the NCAA tournament (probably around the 12 seed ish range) and had obviously shown the chops to make the podium. Then along comes Joe coming down to 165 in the 11th hour with dads permission to take Rogders spot. That’s one of the only time ever I’ve thought a wrestle off was bull crap because it was that late in the season. So instead Joe gets a 33 seed (which was obviously going to happen) and doesn’t even all American. Neither did Jacobe smith at 174.  And Geer was a low AA at 184. And with that, chandlers career was over in BS fashion. He deserved to go out wrestling in the NCAA tournament.

Edited by goheels1812

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26 minutes ago, goheels1812 said:

Sure I’d love to. Chandler was a returning 2 time all American for the team that was 17-3 on the season. He would have been appropriately seeded in the NCAA tournament (probably around the 12 seed ish range) and had obviously shown the chops to make the podium. Then along comes Joe coming down to 165 in the 11th hour with dads permission to take Rogders spot. That’s one of the only time ever I’ve thought a wrestle off was bull crap because it was that late in the season. So instead Joe gets a 33 seed (which was obviously going to happen) and doesn’t even all American. Neither did Jacobe smith at 174.  And Geer was a low AA at 184. And with that, chandlers career was over in BS fashion. He deserved to go out wrestling in the NCAA tournament.

You quote 17-3 but fail to mention he beat nobody and lost to every good wrestler he faced as a senior.  Smith didn't overwhelmingly deserve the spot, but neither did Rogers.  Smith had the clearly superior season before the wrestle off result.  

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19 minutes ago, boconnell said:

You quote 17-3 but fail to mention he beat nobody and lost to every good wrestler he faced as a senior.  Smith didn't overwhelmingly deserve the spot, but neither did Rogers.  Smith had the clearly superior season before the wrestle off result.  

That's fair, and to his credit Chandler noted that at the time. I think what frustrated folks was that you had Chandler making the weight, wrestling the matches, and the impression was that Smith didn't have to be disciplined and contribute regularly to the season. I don't think anyone would argue that Chandler Rogers was a more talented wrestler than Joe Smith.

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1 hour ago, boconnell said:

You quote 17-3 but fail to mention he beat nobody and lost to every good wrestler he faced as a senior.  Smith didn't overwhelmingly deserve the spot, but neither did Rogers.  Smith had the clearly superior season before the wrestle off result.  

That’s fine. But chandler is still a returning 2 time all American that’s grinding making weight at 165 all year and he won 17 matches with no bad losses. He gave a lot to Oklahoma state and John Smith. If you can’t see why that guy deserved to wrestle in the NCAA tournament his senior season then I doubt we will see eye to eye on this. If you can find another example of a senior 2 time all American getting booted out of the lineup in the 11th hour for another wrestler coming down a weight I’d be shocked. Saying that Chandler “didn’t deserve” his spot is crazy to me. 

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6 minutes ago, goheels1812 said:

That’s fine. But chandler is still a returning 2 time all American that’s grinding making weight at 165 all year and he won 17 matches with no bad losses. He gave a lot to Oklahoma state and John Smith. If you can’t see why that guy deserved to wrestle in the NCAA tournament his senior season then I doubt we will see eye to eye on this. If you can find another example of a senior 2 time all American getting booted out of the lineup in the 11th hour for another wrestler coming down a weight I’d be shocked. Saying that Chandler “didn’t deserve” his spot is crazy to me. 

he got beat in a challenge match, it's not like Smith just said rogers you're out and then put his son in. Nevills at Penn State was an AA who lost his spot as a senior to a guy who came up a weight. Not exactly what you're asking for but it does happen.

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55 minutes ago, Perry said:

he got beat in a challenge match, it's not like Smith just said rogers you're out and then put his son in. Nevills at Penn State was an AA who lost his spot as a senior to a guy who came up a weight. Not exactly what you're asking for but it does happen.

Cassar took Nevills spot at the beginning of the season and wrestled the entire season as the PSU starting heavy. I’d have absolutely 0 problem if Joe had wrestled 165 all year. The problem to me is that he came down right before the NCAA tournament. Rodgers basically got to be a placeholder all year because Joe either couldn’t make 165 for an entire season or didn’t care enough to. That’s my problem. 

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3 hours ago, goheels1812 said:

Sure I’d love to. Chandler was a returning 2 time all American for the team that was 17-3 on the season. He would have been appropriately seeded in the NCAA tournament (probably around the 12 seed ish range) and had obviously shown the chops to make the podium. Then along comes Joe coming down to 165 in the 11th hour with dads permission to take Rogders spot. That’s one of the only time ever I’ve thought a wrestle off was bull crap because it was that late in the season. So instead Joe gets a 33 seed (which was obviously going to happen) and doesn’t even all American. Neither did Jacobe smith at 174.  And Geer was a low AA at 184. And with that, chandlers career was over in BS fashion. He deserved to go out wrestling in the NCAA tournament.

You are also leaving out the fact that Smith, Smith and Greer were also wrestling up for the bulk of the season because of the Weigel injury. Everyone was wrestling up because there was the thought Weigel was done for the year. Weigel got back to healthy quicker than they thought. Weigel then finished 3rd at NCAAs. 

Someone out of the four was going to have to sit. It sucks it happened so late in the year but it seems like a wrestle off was the least suckiest way to do it. 

Edited by osufan12

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1 hour ago, goheels1812 said:

That’s fine. But chandler is still a returning 2 time all American that’s grinding making weight at 165 all year and he won 17 matches with no bad losses. He gave a lot to Oklahoma state and John Smith. If you can’t see why that guy deserved to wrestle in the NCAA tournament his senior season then I doubt we will see eye to eye on this. If you can find another example of a senior 2 time all American getting booted out of the lineup in the 11th hour for another wrestler coming down a weight I’d be shocked. Saying that Chandler “didn’t deserve” his spot is crazy to me. 

Smith was a 2X AA as well.

Rogers had a bad season where he lost to the top 15 type guys he wrestled.  Then he lost twice to a fringe top 15 guy in Smith.  I've never considered wrestling to be a sport where guys get given spots because they tried hard or sacrificed a lot.  

Rogers is my favorite Cowboy of the last 5 years but he had a bad season and got beat out of the spot.  I can't complain on his behalf when his failure to win matches was the reason he wasn't in the lineup.

Again I have no problem with someone complaining that Smith didn't deserve the spot.  I agree.  I would have gone with Rogers.  But I do have a problem with pretending that Rogers was robbed or that he lost his spot due to anything other than his lack of performance.  

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3 hours ago, cangemi said:

Katie,

Better he finishes strong few months left. He would regret it at this point.

Good enough to be AA .  I have a lot of confidence his father took pressure off of him. Just my guess.

I don’t know what’s best for any particular wrestler. All I’m saying is that there are times when quitting is the best option -- and that idea extends beyond wrestling to life in general.

Edited by Katie

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