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23 minutes ago, gobraves101905 said:

It’s a good thing the Penn State bias will not enter the equation this year. Stieber just further proves why Zahid would get the nod over Spencer. 

PSU has an angle in the Hodge Race. If Zahid loses and Cenzo runs the table then give it to Cenzo. 3x Champ. 

Edited by TBar1977

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55 minutes ago, gobraves101905 said:

It’s a good thing the Penn State bias will not enter the equation this year. Stieber just further proves why Zahid would get the nod over Spencer. 

Stieber not winning the Hodge as junior does not prove why Zahid will win it even a little bit.  One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

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6 hours ago, headshuck said:

I disagree.  If a freshman went undefeated with 25 pins he'd get the Hodge over a 3-time champ. That's the way it's supposed to work.

 

That is what I’m saying. It would take an extraordinary performance to overcome a 3 timer with a solid bonus rate. 100% pins would be an example of an extraordinary performance. 
  
it’s never happened. 

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Hodge criteria:

  1. A wrestler's record
  2. Number of pins
  3. Dominance on the mat
  4. Past credentials
  5. Quality of competition
  6. Sportsmanship/Citizenship
  7. Heart

While a wrestler's record is only one of the criteria, it is listed first. Not sure if that means they give it more weight, or not. The past credentials criteria really does favor Valencia, SLee, and Joseph as they each have a shot at being 3-timers this year. If anyone can define, never mind quantify, sportsmanship/citizenship or heart, I am all ears.

But based on history we know heart matters to the committee (at least in extreme examples).

Perhaps think of heart as how Nick Ackerman (he of amputated legs) tied with Cael Sanderson. In the same year Sanderson went 40-0 with 19 pins in D1, Ackerman was 38-4 with 13 pins in D3. Based on that Ackerman trails on record, number of pins, dominance on mat, past credentials, and quality of competition. Let's call it a tie between Ackerman and a Mormon on sportsmanship/citizenship. But you can't beat Ackerman for heart. 

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5 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Hodge criteria:

  1. A wrestler's record
  2. Number of pins
  3. Dominance on the mat
  4. Past credentials
  5. Quality of competition
  6. Sportsmanship/Citizenship
  7. Heart

While a wrestler's record is only one of the criteria, it is listed first. Not sure if that means they give it more weight, or not. The past credentials criteria really does favor Valencia, SLee, and Joseph as they each have a shot at being 3-timers this year. If anyone can define, never mind quantify, sportsmanship/citizenship or heart, I am all ears.

But based on history we know heart matters to the committee (at least in extreme examples).

Perhaps think of heart as how Nick Ackerman (he of amputated legs) tied with Cael Sanderson. In the same year Sanderson went 40-0 with 19 pins in D1, Ackerman was 38-4 with 13 pins in D3. Based on that Ackerman trails on record, number of pins, dominance on mat, past credentials, and quality of competition. Let's call it a tie between Ackerman and a Mormon on sportsmanship/citizenship. But you can't beat Ackerman for heart. 

I would rank DeSanto low for 6.

Edited by Mokoma

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IMHO Spencer Lee’s level of dominance far exceeds Zahid’s. First of all, Spencer has only had eight offensive points scored on him at least five of which were escapes. His closest match was a win by a seven point margin. His next closest match was by a nine point margin and after that he won every other match by fall or at least a fifteen point margin. Only two of his thirteen matches made it to the third period. The problem is he’s wrestled exactly one top ten opponent. 

By contrast Zahid has wrestled three top ten opponents but has had over sixty offensive points scored on him. Seven of his twenty wins have gone the distance and an additional five made it to the third period. His closed match was a one point margin and his second closest was a four point margin. The rest of his matches were bonus points but five of these were major decisions and not tech falls.

In almost any other context these differences aren’t worth talking about but if you want to talk about true dominance, Lee’s record this year is to date far more impressive, at least to me. 

All that said, none of this matters if either of them lose or if one of them has a lot more regular decisions vs top tier opponents.  As it happens this year the highest ranked guys at 125 are mostly not in the B1G but Lee has defeated most of them handily and his loss to Picc was during and off time. For what it’s worth I think it’s much more likely that Lee bonuses all his remaining competition than Zahid does  

 

 

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3 minutes ago, BigTimeFan said:

IMHO Spencer Lee’s level of dominance far exceeds Zahid’s. First of all, Spencer has only had eight offensive points scored on him at least five of which were escapes. His closest match was a win by a seven point margin. His next closest match was by a nine point margin and after that he won every other match by fall or at least a fifteen point margin. Only two of his thirteen matches made it to the third period. The problem is he’s wrestled exactly one top ten opponent. 

By contrast Zahid has wrestled three top ten opponents but has had over sixty offensive points scored on him. Seven of his twenty wins have gone the distance and an additional five made it to the third period. His closed match was a one point margin and his second closest was a four point margin. The rest of his matches were bonus points but five of these were major decisions and not tech falls.

In almost any other context these differences aren’t worth talking about but if you want to talk about true dominance, Lee’s record this year is to date far more impressive, at least to me. 

All that said, none of this matters if either of them lose or if one of them has a lot more regular decisions vs top tier opponents.  As it happens this year the highest ranked guys at 125 are mostly not in the B1G but Lee has defeated most of them handily and his loss to Picc was during and off time. For what it’s worth I think it’s much more likely that Lee bonuses all his remaining competition than Zahid does  

 

 

Yeah, but what's his heart like?

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On 2/10/2020 at 9:25 AM, TBar1977 said:

Agree. Career will be rewarded if Zahid takes 184 weight class. 

Suppose Zahid goes on to win 184, but isn't dominant (perhaps one of his NCAA wins is even controversial), while Spencer bonus the remainder of his opponents.

Who wins the Hodge?

Does Nick Lee have a shot if he bonuses everyone but Pletcher (while still beating him 3x)?

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23 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Hodge criteria:

  1. A wrestler's record
  2. Number of pins
  3. Dominance on the mat
  4. Past credentials
  5. Quality of competition
  6. Sportsmanship/Citizenship
  7. Heart

While a wrestler's record is only one of the criteria, it is listed first. Not sure if that means they give it more weight, or not. The past credentials criteria really does favor Valencia, SLee, and Joseph as they each have a shot at being 3-timers this year. If anyone can define, never mind quantify, sportsmanship/citizenship or heart, I am all ears.

But based on history we know heart matters to the committee (at least in extreme examples).

Perhaps think of heart as how Nick Ackerman (he of amputated legs) tied with Cael Sanderson. In the same year Sanderson went 40-0 with 19 pins in D1, Ackerman was 38-4 with 13 pins in D3. Based on that Ackerman trails on record, number of pins, dominance on mat, past credentials, and quality of competition. Let's call it a tie between Ackerman and a Mormon on sportsmanship/citizenship. But you can't beat Ackerman for heart. 

I don't understand why Robles never won the Hodge.

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16 minutes ago, jchapman said:

I don't understand why Robles never won the Hodge.

From the WIN magazine article for 2011:

In one of the tightest races in its 17-year existence, the Dan Hodge Trophy for 2011 has been awarded to the Cornhusker star (Jordan Burroughs) who won the 165-pound NCAA title in Philadelphia.

Jordan Oliver, a sophomore from Oklahoma State who finished 29-0 en route to the 133-pound title, finished as a close runner-up for the award on the strength of his 11 pins. Crowd-favorite Anthony Robles (36-0) of Arizona State finished third by a razor-thin margin after pilling up an amazing 24 tech falls and beating last year’s NCAA champ Matt McDonough of Iowa by six points in the NCAA finals.

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If I had to handicap it right now I would say Vincenzo Joseph, Luke Pletcher and Nick Lee are in a dead heat at third place. They each lead each other in one of the criteria. Joseph clearly leads in the past achievements category with his two titles. Pletcher has the edge on the other two in the strength of schedule category, having wrestled close to twice the ranked wrestlers of the other two. And NLee leads in the dominance category with a score of 4.88 (second only to SLee at 5.00 and tied with Valencia).

However, they all have the same problem, and one that neither Zahid Valencia nor Spencer Lee have. They each might have to face another Hodge quality wrestler up to three times. Joseph has cleared that hurdle once already with his win over Marinelli in the dual. And he may or may not have to clear that hurdle again. For that reason he has to be first among equals, so call it third plus. That leaves Pletcher and NLee in third minus. The winner on Saturday moves to third plus with Joseph and the loser is eliminated. But the loser will probably have a chance at revenge at either the Big 10 tourney or the NCAAs or both.

Finally, I think the only way that Pletcher or NLee gets the Hodge this year is if Valencia, SLee and Joseph all take one on the chin (or at least put up a bunch of "poor" wins, whatever that is). The Hodge committee has strongly leaned on Past Achievements in this award and it is just impossible to ignore one, two or three guys with three titles to their name.

Edited by Wrestleknownothing

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NCAA just released their update of "Most Dominant Wrestler" Standings.

Not sure why Spencer isn't listed ?  Match minimum ?  I calculate a 5.0 for him in 13 matches.

NK NAME SCHOOL WEIGHT AVG. TEAM POINTS
1 Zahid Valencia Arizona St. 184 4.89
2 Nick Lee Penn St. 141 4.88
3 Pat Glory Princeton 125 4.74
4 Mark Hall Penn St. 174 4.72
5 Mason Parris Michigan 285 4.41
6 Shane Griffith Stanford 165 4.29
7 Kollin Moore Ohio St. 197 4.27
8 Noah Adams West Virginia 197 4.25
9 Ryan Deakin Northwestern 157 4.20
9 Tanner Cook South Dakota St. 165 4.20

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So I consider myself a wrestling junkie but I honestly didn't know who Tanner Cook was.  Looks like I need to pay attention to the smaller schools...

https://www.wrestlestat.com/wrestler/51408/cook-tanner/profile

Interesting someone on that list with three losses, dude gets a lot of falls.   Looks like maybe a Cornell recruit and followed Hahn to Brookings?  How did he get two Finger Lake years, can't you only take one greyshirt?

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1 hour ago, Show_Me said:

NCAA just released their update of "Most Dominant Wrestler" Standings.

Not sure why Spencer isn't listed ?  Match minimum ?  I calculate a 5.0 for him in 13 matches.

NK NAME SCHOOL WEIGHT AVG. TEAM POINTS
1 Zahid Valencia Arizona St. 184 4.89
2 Nick Lee Penn St. 141 4.88
3 Pat Glory Princeton 125 4.74
4 Mark Hall Penn St. 174 4.72
5 Mason Parris Michigan 285 4.41
6 Shane Griffith Stanford 165 4.29
7 Kollin Moore Ohio St. 197 4.27
8 Noah Adams West Virginia 197 4.25
9 Ryan Deakin Northwestern 157 4.20
9 Tanner Cook South Dakota St. 165 4.20

Correct on both counts. It is a 15 match minimum and he is at 5.00 in his first 13 matches.

Also missing from the list due to not having  enough matches are Kolodzik (4.67), Mueller (4.64), Steveson (4.60), Joseph (4.45), and Kemerer (4.0)

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13 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Correct on both counts. It is a 15 match minimum and he is at 5.00 in his first 13 matches.

Also missing from the list due to not having  enough matches are Kolodzik (4.67), Mueller (4.64), Steveson (4.60), Joseph (4.45), and Kemerer (4.0)

And Max Dean (5.600) :-)

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18 minutes ago, Gantry said:

So I consider myself a wrestling junkie but I honestly didn't know who Tanner Cook was.  Looks like I need to pay attention to the smaller schools...

https://www.wrestlestat.com/wrestler/51408/cook-tanner/profile

Interesting someone on that list with three losses, dude gets a lot of falls.   Looks like maybe a Cornell recruit and followed Hahn to Brookings?  How did he get two Finger Lake years, can't you only take one greyshirt?

There's no such thing as a "greyshirt".  You can spend as much time as you like at FLWC, as far as I know.  It happens that many guys who have been accepted at Cornell take a year there.

What you call a greyshirt is a gap year.

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12 hours ago, klehner said:

There's no such thing as a "greyshirt".  You can spend as much time as you like at FLWC, as far as I know.  It happens that many guys who have been accepted at Cornell take a year there.

What you call a greyshirt is a gap year.

But doesn't your eligibility clock start a year after you graduate?  Could have sworn that this has been stated before...  If not what's to prevent someone from going to FLWC until they are 26 and then enroll as a "freshman"?

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