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15 minutes ago, Gantry said:

But doesn't your eligibility clock start a year after you graduate?  Could have sworn that this has been stated before...  If not what's to prevent someone from going to FLWC until they are 26 and then enroll as a "freshman"?

Yes, if you want to compete in D1, you have one year to enroll.  He could have wrestled at FLWC while not graduating yet from HS (I think Josh Saunders has been doing something similar, but I could be wrong).  Sal Jones has wrestled for two "seasons" at FLWC, ending 1/1/20, and is now on the Cornell roster.

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On 2/11/2020 at 7:55 PM, Wrestleknownothing said:

If I had to handicap it right now I would say Vincenzo Joseph, Luke Pletcher and Nick Lee are in a dead heat at third place. They each lead each other in one of the criteria. Joseph clearly leads in the past achievements category with his two titles. Pletcher has the edge on the other two in the strength of schedule category, having wrestled close to twice the ranked wrestlers of the other two. And NLee leads in the dominance category with a score of 4.88 (second only to SLee at 5.00 and tied with Valencia).

However, they all have the same problem, and one that neither Zahid Valencia nor Spencer Lee have. They each might have to face another Hodge quality wrestler up to three times. Joseph has cleared that hurdle once already with his win over Marinelli in the dual. And he may or may not have to clear that hurdle again. For that reason he has to be first among equals, so call it third plus. That leaves Pletcher and NLee in third minus. The winner on Saturday moves to third plus with Joseph and the loser is eliminated. But the loser will probably have a chance at revenge at either the Big 10 tourney or the NCAAs or both.

Finally, I think the only way that Pletcher or NLee gets the Hodge this year is if Valencia, SLee and Joseph all take one on the chin (or at least put up a bunch of "poor" wins, whatever that is). The Hodge committee has strongly leaned on Past Achievements in this award and it is just impossible to ignore one, two or three guys with three titles to their name.

Does Pletcher still have that quality of competition edge after the past week?  Seriously asking.

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On 2/10/2020 at 5:14 PM, BigTimeFan said:

IMHO Spencer Lee’s level of dominance far exceeds Zahid’s. First of all, Spencer has only had eight offensive points scored on him at least five of which were escapes. His closest match was a win by a seven point margin. His next closest match was by a nine point margin and after that he won every other match by fall or at least a fifteen point margin. Only two of his thirteen matches made it to the third period. The problem is he’s wrestled exactly one top ten opponent. 

By contrast Zahid has wrestled three top ten opponents but has had over sixty offensive points scored on him. Seven of his twenty wins have gone the distance and an additional five made it to the third period. His closed match was a one point margin and his second closest was a four point margin. The rest of his matches were bonus points but five of these were major decisions and not tech falls.

In almost any other context these differences aren’t worth talking about but if you want to talk about true dominance, Lee’s record this year is to date far more impressive, at least to me. 

All that said, none of this matters if either of them lose or if one of them has a lot more regular decisions vs top tier opponents.  As it happens this year the highest ranked guys at 125 are mostly not in the B1G but Lee has defeated most of them handily and his loss to Picc was during and off time. For what it’s worth I think it’s much more likely that Lee bonuses all his remaining competition than Zahid does  

 

 

60 offense points against Zahid?  Those aren't actual earned takedowns and nearfalls or is Zahid letting guys up for escapes?  Except for a few matches, all of the scores the other guys have are from Zahid cutting them for 1 point multiple times per match to get another TD/nearfall.

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"60 offense points against Zahid?  Those aren't actual earned takedowns and nearfalls or is Zahid letting guys up for escapes?  Except for a few matches, all of the scores the other guys have are from Zahid cutting them for 1 point multiple times per match to get another TD/nearfall".

Zahid's last match against Missouri, he took his opponent down 11 times and released him 9 times, which is something he does quite a lot. 

You really need to pay attention to his bouts. 

 

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

Does Pletcher still have that quality of competition edge after the past week?  Seriously asking.

Yes, because he wrestled MSU Open and Cliff Keen he has several more matches against ranked wrestlers than Nick Lee. For example, in the MSU Open he beat Dom Demas and Dylan Duncan. At Cliff Keen he beat Chad Red and Mitch McKee (and then beat them again in duals). They also had a dual against Stanford so he has a win over Real Woods. So even though Nick Lee beat Red and McKee in the last two weeks, Pletcher has beat them twice.

Coincidentally, the NCAA released their RPI today. Pletcher was #1 and Lee was #7 at 141.

Edited by Wrestleknownothing

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

Does Pletcher still have that quality of competition edge after the past week?  Seriously asking.

As an aside that I forgot to mention in the first reply, Lee's results against their common opponents ranked in the top 10 are slightly better. There are three such opponents: Moran, McKee and Red. In terms of Dominance Score (i.e. dual scoring equivalent) Lee averaged 4.67 in 3 matches while Pletcher averaged 3.6 in 5 matches.

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3 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Yes, because he wrestled MSU Open and Cliff Keen he has several more matches against ranked wrestlers than Nick Lee. For example, in the MSU Open he beat Dom Demas and Dylan Duncan. At Cliff Keen he beat Chad Red and Mitch McKee (and then beat them again in duals). They also had a dual against Stanford so he has a win over Real Woods. So even though Nick Lee beat Red and McKee in the last two weeks, Pletcher has beat them twice.

Coincidentally, the NCAA released their RPI today. Pletcher was #1 and Lee was #7 at 141.

Thank you sir 

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3 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

As an aside that I forgot to mention in the first reply, Lee's results against their common opponents ranked in the top 10 are slightly better. There are three such opponents: Moran, McKee and Red. In terms of Dominance Score (i.e. dual scoring equivalent) Lee averaged 4.67 in 3 matches while Pletcher averaged 3.6 in 5 matches.

The interesting thing is which would carry more weight. A higher number of “top” opponents or more dominant over common top opponents. Not that it matters in this scenario, just for fun. 

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7 minutes ago, pamela said:

Is it Spencer Lee’s to lose now? I thought earlier that maybe not wrestling a full season would hurt his chances, but I’m not sure who else can win it. Maybe Kollin Moore or Nick Lee? 

Cenzo is the closest to Spencer, if he beats marinelli 2 more times and picks up a few bonus wins at big tens or early rounds of NCAAs he could very well win. He’d be a 3 timer 4 time finalist, with wins over Imar in 2 of them.

i see it very similar to zains sophomore year when Ringer won it after his 3rd title even though zain had better bonus. 
 
the Flo guys act as if career accomplishments is a small part of the criteria but I think that may just be with them because it’s has seemed to play a pretty role in a few hodge races 

add in the fact Spencer almost definitely wins it next year when/if he becomes a 4 timer and it could be cenzo for the taking this year.

spencer also is in a much weaker weight class and sat out his 2 highest ranked matches this (glory) 

Edited by Antitroll2828

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1 minute ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Cenzo is the closest to Spencer, if he beats marinelli 2 more times and picks up a few bonus wins at big tens or early rounds of NCAAs he could very well win. He’d be a 3 timer 4 time finalist, with wins over Imar in 2 of them.

i see it very similar to zains sophomore year when Ringer won it after his 3rd title even though zain had better bonus. 
 
the Flo guys act as if career accomplishments is a small part of the criteria but I think that may just be with them because it’s has seemed to play a pretty role in a few hodge races 

add in the fact Spencer almost definitely wins it next year when/if he becomes a 4 timer and it could be cenzo for the taking this year.

Maybe... but Cenzo only has 13 matches under his belt so far though (Spencer has 12) and I don’t know if that might work against him, or if anyone with 20ish or fewer matches has won the Hodge before.

If Martinelli bulldozes his way through the postseason, I think he’ll be in the conversation with 1 loss.

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1 minute ago, pamela said:

Maybe... but Cenzo only has 13 matches under his belt so far though (Spencer has 12) and I don’t know if that might work against him, or if anyone with 20ish or fewer matches has won the Hodge before.

If Martinelli bulldozes his way through the postseason, I think he’ll be in the conversation with 1 loss.

Martinelli has zero chance at getting any Hodge votes.

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4 minutes ago, JerryCallo said:

Has anyone ever won the Hodge with a loss?  I sort of figured going undefeated was a given, no?

Yes, it's happened a few times, with one of them being Metcalf.

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On 2/13/2020 at 3:23 PM, Tommy Payan said:

"60 offense points against Zahid?  Those aren't actual earned takedowns and nearfalls or is Zahid letting guys up for escapes?  Except for a few matches, all of the scores the other guys have are from Zahid cutting them for 1 point multiple times per match to get another TD/nearfall".

Zahid's last match against Missouri, he took his opponent down 11 times and released him 9 times, which is something he does quite a lot. 

You really need to pay attention to his bouts. 

 

Wasn't the final score 14-10?  It was pretty competitive as I recall.

https://www.wrestlestat.com/event/48355/arizona-state-missouri-dual/boxscore

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On 2/13/2020 at 3:23 PM, Tommy Payan said:

"60 offense points against Zahid?  Those aren't actual earned takedowns and nearfalls or is Zahid letting guys up for escapes?  Except for a few matches, all of the scores the other guys have are from Zahid cutting them for 1 point multiple times per match to get another TD/nearfall".

Zahid's last match against Missouri, he took his opponent down 11 times and released him 9 times, which is something he does quite a lot. 

You really need to pay attention to his bouts. 

 

The final score of that match was 14-10. Zahid was leading 6-5 after the first period.  It was 13-8 with 30 seconds to go in the 3rd when Wisman took Zahid down and cut him. Wisman either took down Zahid or reversed him 3 times that match. I watched it live but can’t find the video of it anywhere to confirm...but the final score was 14-10 so Zahid sure as hell didn’t take him down 11 times.

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50 minutes ago, MDogg said:

The final score of that match was 14-10. Zahid was leading 6-5 after the first period.  It was 13-8 with 30 seconds to go in the 3rd when Wisman took Zahid down and cut him. Wisman either took down Zahid or reversed him 3 times that match. I watched it live but can’t find the video of it anywhere to confirm...but the final score was 14-10 so Zahid sure as hell didn’t take him down 11 times.

Here is the dual on YouTube. All the comments talk about Zahid looking bad, being exposed, etc.  First points for Wisman were a reversal.

 

Edited by MonagFam

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19 hours ago, Mokoma said:

Yes, it's happened a few times, with one of them being Metcalf.

If Metcalfe won the Hodge with a loss does that mean no one was undefeated that year?  It would seem to me hard for someone to win it with a loss if others were undefeated Champs in the same year.  

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2 minutes ago, JerryCallo said:

If Metcalfe won the Hodge with a loss does that mean no one was undefeated that year?  It would seem to me hard for someone to win it with a loss if others were undefeated Champs in the same year.  

I believe Gavin was the only undefeated that year, and he had marginal bonus point / pins.  It was definitely a controversial decision though.

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