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uncle bernard

RBY should have been DQ'd

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First, I have no skin in the game and as a former wrestler and coach, I am trying to be objective.  The match is on Youtube and watch the replay starting at 1:43.  Use your phone to record in slow motion if you want to really analyze the move in even slower motion. 

Top wrestler (TW) uses both hands to slightly tug/pull the lower part of the leg of Bottom Wrestler (BW) outside of his base to ensure BW does not sit on his own leg.  TW then posts his left hand and pulls again with his right hand (with right forearm placed against the side of the leg of BW) to make sure the bottom part of BW leg is outside of his base.  TW then reaches for bottom of the foot/toe with left hand and turns the toe outward.  Note BW head is stuck under TW hips/thigh.  TW then pulls again with both hands outward.  TW then releases the leg with both hands and goes for cradle.

The question is (regardless of who the wrestlers are, what team they are for or their past performances), "Is the pressure against the normal movement of the knee joint?" 

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39 minutes ago, John Morgan said:

First, I have no skin in the game and as a former wrestler and coach, I am trying to be objective.  The match is on Youtube and watch the replay starting at 1:43.  Use your phone to record in slow motion if you want to really analyze the move in even slower motion. 

Top wrestler (TW) uses both hands to slightly tug/pull the lower part of the leg of Bottom Wrestler (BW) outside of his base to ensure BW does not sit on his own leg.  TW then posts his left hand and pulls again with his right hand (with right forearm placed against the side of the leg of BW) to make sure the bottom part of BW leg is outside of his base.  TW then reaches for bottom of the foot/toe with left hand and turns the toe outward.  Note BW head is stuck under TW hips/thigh.  TW then pulls again with both hands outward.  TW then releases the leg with both hands and goes for cradle.

The question is (regardless of who the wrestlers are, what team they are for or their past performances), "Is the pressure against the normal movement of the knee joint?" 

Yeah, the pressure is against normal. This happens all the time and nobody is trying to hurt anyone. Desanto twists guys legs and knees. The sport requires super fast decision making. 

I don't think I have watched a single match between ranked wrestlers this year where one or both wrestlers did not have knees in a potentially dangerous position.

 

Edited by TBar1977

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Some of you havent experienced something like this and it shows. If rby grabbed the ankle and pulled it out it would have been legal, and wouldn't have put direct pressure on the knee. It was a situation where desanto either gets hurt or goes over for the pin... it just so happens that both of those things happened. Have someone run an inside cradle on you. One where they hook the ankle, and one where they grab your foot and pull. One will hurt a lot more and risk injury. Thats why B. Lee got dqd for the same thing.

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12 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Yeah, the pressure is against normal. This happens all the time and nobody is trying to hurt anyone. Desanto twists guys legs and knees. The sport requires super fast decision making. 

I don't think I have watched a single match between ranked wrestlers this year where one or both wrestlers had knees in a potentially dangerous position.

 

Again, objectively, I am just looking at the technique/move...I didn't say anyone was trying to hurt anyone and regardless of who the wrestlers are.  So I appreciate your agreement.

Personally and in my opinion, I wouldn't teach this type of inside cradle for fear the bottom wrestler would get hurt. Why? The bottom wrestler will feel the pressure on the inside portion of his knee.  Having had this injury before, even a partial tear to the medial collateral ligament is a bitch.

 

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1.     DeSanto’s emotional state was tested and bested by a more determined opponent.

2.     DeSanto will read and hear from multiple 100’s of fans ridiculing him for quitting the way he did. Just check the boards and read the comments.

3.     DeSanto will learn from this unfortunate nationally televised spectacle which will result in an even more formidable 133lb Hawkeye wrestler.

4.     DeSanto destroys RBY during their next encounter.

5.     For all those still refusing to acknowledge what their eyes have clearly seen and  believe an injury did indeed end the bout , this IS Division 1 Wrestling. and Yianni won a National title with a torn ACL!

Edited by Marcus Cisero

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3 minutes ago, Marcus Cisero said:

1.     DeSanto’s emotional state was tested and bested by a more determined opponent.  YES

2.     DeSanto will read and hear from multiple 100’s of fans ridiculing him for quitting the way he did. Just check the boards and read the comments. YES

3.     DeSanto will learn from this unfortunate nationally televised spectacle which will result in an even more formidable 133lb Hawkeye wrestler. YES

4.     DeSanto destroys RBY during their next encounter. NO

5.     For all those still refusing to believe what their eyes have clearly seen, or what Brands had to say during the post match Q&A, this IS Division 1 Wrestling. Yianni won a National title with a torn ACL! YESx100!

Concur with all except #4. 

RBY outwrestled ADS in every way last night AND caused him to mentally crater. The latter will leave a "deep scar" on ADS's psyche.

Next time they meet, RBY will be going in fully confident that his game plan was working well in last night's match. ADS will know that despite whatever really happened with his knee, RBY had completely shut down his game. 

If anything, ADS will likely get way too amped up emotionally for his next match with RBY and should he fall behind by 3 or so points early on, may crater again.

Look, I respect college athletes and the fishbowl they compete in, including ADS, but it appears that some here don't believe a top talent in DI would mentally break or take a dive to avoid being embarrassed. It's happened and will happen again. 

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2 minutes ago, Old Corps said:

Concur with all except #4. 

RBY outwrestled ADS in every way last night AND caused him to mentally crater. The latter will leave a "deep scar" on ADS's psyche.

Next time they meet, RBY will be going in fully confident that his game plan was working well in last night's match. ADS will know that despite whatever really happened with his knee, RBY had completely shut down his game. 

If anything, ADS will likely get way too amped up emotionally for his next match with RBY and should he fall behind by 3 or so points early on, may crater again.

Look, I respect college athletes and the fishbowl they compete in, including ADS, but it appears that some here don't believe a top talent in DI would mentally break or take a dive to avoid being embarrassed. It's happened and will happen again. 

great feedback Old Corps!

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2 hours ago, Perry said:

This is significantly dirtier than anything that happened last night

Related to my post before, the above photo may be more intentional than last night’s situation but not as harmful to the knee joint. Since Desanto's knee was flexed ~110-120 degrees compared to ~50 degrees in the photo above, Desanto's knee has far less medial and lateral stability due to the MCL and LCL becoming more slack. The force on the medial side of the knee from the lateral rotation of the tibia can do far more damage in Desanto’s case. Furthermore, Desanto’s knee is fixed in the ground, so the hip can not rotate to compensate. In the above photo the knee is not fixed to the ground, allowing hip rotation inward to reduce force on the knee. So for all of those saying Desanto isn’t tough enough to handle it and they see this happen all the time in wrestling without Injury, this particular motion at this degree of flexion is actually quite unique. 

 

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When desanto was at Drexel, he wishboned Tucker’s knee even worse in the semis.  He still lost, but what RBY did was not illegal.  Rubber knee defense puts the knee at a worse angle than that.  
 

let’s not act like desanto doesn’t put opponents in uncomfortable situations.  
 

https://www.flowrestling.org/video/6130751-133-lbs-semifinal-chaz-tucker-cornell-vs-austin-desanto-drexel

not only did he pull, but he wrenched the knee back and forth.  Plus a final lateral wrench AFTER the whistle.  This was at the end of the match when he was babying about getting beat.  I was also sitting next to Tucker’s father (Army fan not Cornell fan here).  

The huge difference between RBY and Desanto’s foot pull is desanto was trying to injure and RBY was trying to score/pin.

if he really is injured, I’m not glad, but if you dish it out, be prepared to take it.  

Edited by Cptafw164

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6 minutes ago, Cptafw164 said:

When desanto was at Drexel, he wishboned Tucker’s knee even worse in the semis.  He still lost, but what RBY did was not illegal.  Rubber knee defense puts the knee at a worse angle than that.  
 

let’s not act like desanto doesn’t put opponents in uncomfortable situations.  

Right on.  RBY wasn't even trying to make it uncomfortable.  He just needed room to get his hand behind the knee.

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6 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Right on.  RBY wasn't even trying to make it uncomfortable.  He just needed room to get his hand behind the knee.

+1.  I edited because RBY was trying to score.  I don’t know how much more favorable RBY could have been to the leg or joint in his technique there.  

Edited by Cptafw164

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2 hours ago, fadzaev2 said:

I taped this meet and just went back and looked at the situation again, which I didn't think was illegal at the time.......I still don't see anything illegal ....RBY had his right/inside hand behind DeSanto's knee/calf and left hand on the ball of the foot ...he brought both around at the same time to straighten the leg out for the cradle....looks like great technique to me.  Like someone else mentioned ....the Brands would have gone coo coo if they thought it was illegal....of course, they couldn't afford anymore team points deducted either.

49472915188_404ecdb52d_b.jpgrbydesanto by fadzaev6, on Flickr

I respectfully disagree. Him bringing the ankle and leg towards him actually increases the force on the knee since the knee was fixed to the ground. If he just pulled the ankle, there would be far less force on the medial knee and more on the ankle. The knee is most definitely not supposed to move this direction. Especially when the knee is fixed and the hip cannot rotate inward to compensate. 

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"RBY should have been DQ'd" - for wrestling an emotional child.  "He's young" and "C'mon, give a kid a break" got DeSanto through high school and even got him out of his display of immaturity and cruelty in the Micic match.  He is no longer young.  He is, however, an emotional child.  RBY should have been DQ'd for wrestling one

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2 hours ago, fadzaev2 said:

looks like great technique to me.  Like someone else mentioned

Going to the foot adds a bit more danger, especially if you are going to just rip the leg over quickly. 

J jaggers was the master in this position. Ive never seen him go down to the foot. 

There wasn't malicious intent by RBY. Was Desanto was hurt? Ya, even a sprained ligament can freak you out and he clearly could not compose himself. It shouldnt be shocking to anyone that Desanto had an issue staying composed. Good thing he has a strong support staff at Iowa and can move forward.

Im not sure what else PSU fans or Iowa haters want. 6 points went Penn State's way and Iowa lost a point out of the deal. 

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6 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Going to the foot adds a bit more danger, especially if you are going to just rip the leg over quickly. 

J jaggers was the master in this position. Ive never seen him go down to the foot. 

There wasn't malicious intent by RBY. Was Desanto was hurt? Ya, even a sprained ligament can freak you out and he clearly could not compose himself. It shouldnt be shocking to anyone that Desanto had an issue staying composed. Good thing he has a strong support staff at Iowa and can move forward.

Im not sure what else PSU fans or Iowa haters want. 6 points went Penn State's way and Iowa lost a point out of the deal. 

Probably because RBY could be ranked as high as #1 if the ref just called the pin instead of it being an injury default and now there is a debate about rby win, seems to be the thing that upsets most people 

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30 minutes ago, CentralPT said:

I respectfully disagree. Him bringing the ankle and leg towards him actually increases the force on the knee since the knee was fixed to the ground. If he just pulled the ankle, there would be far less force on the medial knee and more on the ankle. The knee is most definitely not supposed to move this direction. Especially when the knee is fixed and the hip cannot rotate inward to compensate. 

His heel and foot are straight and in line with the hamstring.  
 

you need to watch that flo match I posted when ADS wrestled Tucker in the EIWA Semis.  
 

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6 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Probably because RBY could be ranked as high as #1 if the ref just called the pin instead of it being an injury default and now there is a debate about rby win, seems to be the thing that upsets most people 

I doubt he would jump past gross nationally, but for B1G seeding he is ahead of gross now.

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9 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Probably because RBY could be ranked as high as #1 if the ref just called the pin instead of it being an injury default and now there is a debate about rby win, seems to be the thing that upsets most people 

You have to stop it if a guy is yelling. You want that rule to change? I dont. 

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Just now, jchapman said:

I doubt he would jump past gross nationally, but for B1G seeding he is ahead of gross now.

I mean he’s a returning AA ,the only guy  undefeated still and would have a first period fall over #2 who has split with gross, pretty solid case for being number 1

i don’t think he’s better then gross but objectively looking at both seasons RBY at this point with a pin over desanto he should probably be 1 

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2 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

I mean he’s a returning AA ,the only guy  undefeated still and would have a first period fall over #2 who has split with gross, pretty solid case for being number 1

i don’t think he’s better then gross but objectively looking at both seasons RBY at this point with a pin over desanto he should probably be 1 

Wiscy and Penn State dual in a week, so they will settle it like men!

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