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Jimmy Cinnabon

Kemerer went from a small 157er to a huge 174er in 1 year

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Just now, Mokoma said:

Are you referring to the perfectly timed ankle pick and slick throw that resulted in a total of zero points?

 

Yes! Why does there have to be something wrong with Hall for him not to convert on that? In both situations Kem kept his composure and showed some damn impressive scrambling skills. Is it possible that he just got outwrestled in those position and not that there was something holding Hall back?

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Yes it is possible, but if it were a perfectly timed ankle pick, one of the best wrestlers in the nation should convert there.  If Kemerer can beat Hall again in those positions, then he is better than I thought.

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2 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

That's all I'm saying.  I'm not saying he was sick or using excuses, just that he might have been more worn out and that he will (hopefully) make the correct adjustments moving forward in their next match.

You kind of are though. You are downplaying Kems win by essentially saying Hall wasn't a 100% after the throw. A more energized Hall and it would be different. I think the next match could be different but not because of the reasons you are saying. 

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2 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

Yes it is possible, but if it were a perfectly timed ankle pick, one of the best wrestlers in the nation should convert there.  If Kemerer can beat Hall again in those positions, then he is better than I thought.

Maybe Kem is one of the best wrestlers in the nation? He is undefeated.

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Just now, russelscout said:

You kind of are though. You are downplaying Kems win by essentially saying Hall wasn't a 100% after the throw. A more energized Hall and it would be different. I think the next match could be different but not because of the reasons you are saying. 

I am saying he looked a little more wore out than usual, coupled with the fact that he hit the "slick throw" and scored zero points he lost the match.  Kemerer wrestled great.  I just think Hall is better and will prove that in the next 4 weeks.

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Just now, russelscout said:

Maybe Kem is one of the best wrestlers in the nation? He is undefeated.

Kemerer is one of the best in the nation, no one is disputing that.  Hall is just better, in my opinion.  That may or may not be proved correct next month.

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1 hour ago, Mokoma said:

Kemerer is one of the best in the nation, no one is disputing that.  Hall is just better, in my opinion.  That may or may not be proved correct next month.

That could very well be, but I fail to understand what point you are trying to make. Is it that Hall would have won if he would have capitalized on the throw? You think he gets that throw next match? I don't. Is it that Hall would have won if he didn't go for the throw at all? If you take that whole sequence out, it is 2-1 on takedowns, 1-1 on reversals, and +1 on riding time. How much of that changes IN THIS MATCH if that initial sequence changes? 

I get that you think Hall is better. Thats fine, but you are making excuses for him in this match. I think he just got outwrestled for 7 minutes. No need to try to discredit Kems performance when he just clearly out wrestled Hall this time. 

Edited by russelscout

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3 minutes ago, russelscout said:

That could very well be, but I fail to understand what point you are trying to make. Is it that Hall would have won if he would have capitalized on the throw? You think he gets that throw next match? I don't. Is it that Hall would have won if he didn't go for the throw at all? If you take that whole sequence out, it is 2-1 on takedowns, 1-1 on reversals, and +1 on riding time. How much of that changes IN THIS MATCH if that initial sequence changes? 

I get that you think Hall is better. Thats fine, but you are making excuses for him in this match. I think he just got outwrestled for 7 minutes. No need to try to discredit Kems performance where he just clearly out wrestled Hall this time. 

I'm saying if he converts that throw into points, whether it be a takedown, 2+2 or 2+4, he would have maybe won the match.  Or possibly if he didn't go for it at all, yes.  It just seemed to me the energy he exerted during that throw, then having to come from behind, he made other mistakes that helped lead to the loss.  The entire match changes from that point forward, especially if it is 6-0 Hall.  Come on you know this.

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17 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

I'm saying if he converts that throw into points, whether it be a takedown, 2+2 or 2+4, he would have maybe won the match.  Or possibly if he didn't go for it at all, yes.  It just seemed to me the energy he exerted during that throw, then having to come from behind, he made other mistakes that helped lead to the loss.  The entire match changes from that point forward, especially if it is 6-0 Hall.  Come on you know this.

Come from behind?  He had a lead in the first period.

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16 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

I'm saying if he converts that throw into points, whether it be a takedown, 2+2 or 2+4, he would have maybe won the match.  Or possibly if he didn't go for it at all, yes.  It just seemed to me the energy he exerted during that throw, then having to come from behind, he made other mistakes that helped lead to the loss.  The entire match changes from that point forward, especially if it is 6-0 Hall.  Come on you know this.

...but it was unquestionably not a takedown and back points. So was there something wrong with him during the throw too? 

I don't know this. Your reasoning makes no sense to me. By arguing what could have happened and did not, couldn't I just say if Kemerer scores on every shot he takes, he wins by 10+ points?

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14 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

Come from behind?  He had a lead in the first period.

Was he not down 2-0 after the first sequence?  Could have sworn that he did not score on the throw and Kemerer rolled through and secured the first points.

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13 minutes ago, russelscout said:

...but it was unquestionably not a takedown and back points. So was there something wrong with him during the throw too? 

I don't know this. Your reasoning makes no sense to me. By arguing what could have happened and did not, couldn't I just say if Kemerer scores on every shot he takes, he wins by 10+ points?

Unquestionably not a takedown?  I think there was a lot of question, hence why the brick was thrown by Cael.  Ultimately it was decided there was not control for a takedown which is fine.

As far as backpoints go, I agree there wasn’t any.  What I’m saying is that it was close to Hall converting the throw successfully which easily could have led to 4 back points.  This would have created a much different match under this scenario.  
 

No, why would Kemerer score on every shot?  That is not the same.

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7 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

Was he not down 2-0 after the first sequence?  Could have sworn that he did not score on the throw and Kemerer rolled through and secured the first points.

He got a reversal 20 seconds later.  You are being disingenuous.  He gave up the first takedown.  That's not the same thing as "coming from behind", which implies coming back late from multiple scores.

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russelscout is one of the greater arguers in this forum.  His tenacity and unwillingness to concede even the most minute detail is unmatched.  That is in no way meant to be a jab @russelscout.  

Back to the match.  Kem just flat out wrestled Hall.  No more no less.  No one in their right mind (which does leave out some folks) can argue that Hall isn't a badass.  I was just as impressed with Hall digging in those underhooks and locking that up as I was with Kem winning the match.  That was just pure strength and determination on Halls part.  Kem was great in that match and you have to be, to beat Hall.  I didn't notice Hall wrestling much different than usual to be honest.  Kem just had an answer.  I became a Kemmerer fan during that match.        He showed what I hadn't seen from him before. 

I'm a Buckeye fan, but I'll be rooting for both of them until it's against Ohio State.  

 

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12 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

Was he not down 2-0 after the first sequence?  Could have sworn that he did not score on the throw and Kemerer rolled through and secured the first points.

He got a reversal and then a takedown to go up 4-3 with 20 seconds to go in the 1st. He got to his ankle hook and wrist ride. That should have been a ride out and then he's in the driver seat the rest of the match. It was Kem that changed the match by coming from behind by getting that late reversal. Hall controlled most of the first period action, but Kem hung in there and swung the momentum.

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An underrated aspect of this match was Kem's hips. Hall's only takedown was in the first when he was able to get deep enough where they didn't matter. Every other time he got in, he got stonewalled by Kem's hips, which you don't see often.

On the flip side, Kem's head outside attacks really gave Hall trouble. I remember arguing with a Penn State fan (TBAR maybe?) about this last spring when I said Kem's head outside finishes might give Hall problems and make Kem the most likely challenger because it's almost impossible to score on Hall head inside, whereas some have had success scoring with high crotches. TBar told me I was being ridiculous. I guess not.

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28 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

Unquestionably not a takedown?  I think there was a lot of question, hence why the brick was thrown by Cael.  Ultimately it was decided there was not control for a takedown which is fine.

As far as backpoints go, I agree there wasn’t any.  What I’m saying is that it was close to Hall converting the throw successfully which easily could have led to 4 back points.  This would have created a much different match under this scenario.  
 

No, why would Kemerer score on every shot?  That is not the same.

I have yet to see anyone suggest that should be a takedown. It happened so quickly, and I understand the challenge, but the review was clear.

Of course Kemerer wouldn't score on every shot. Why would Hall convert on a throw in which he did not?  It doesn't make sense to use hypotheticals as a bases for your argument. 

Edited by russelscout

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Just now, jchapman said:

I think Kem out-wrestled Hall on Friday.  I think Kem wrestled his "A" game, and Hall did not wrestle his "A" game (and yes Kem could have had something to do with this).  I think Hall's "A" game beats Kem's "A" game.

We saw Kem come out very well prepared. Hall was not prepared for Kem. That was the difference IMO. We are going to see a different approach from Hall next time.

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3 hours ago, Mokoma said:

Yes it is possible, but if it were a perfectly timed ankle pick, one of the best wrestlers in the nation should convert there.  If Kemerer can beat Hall again in those positions, then he is better than I thought.

so then that makes kemerer one of the best in the nation at defeating that move? 

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everyone is talking about how BIG kem is

I find it funny not many have realized that hall's size might finally be hurting him

i didn't think kem looked that big or strong against other 174's

especially early in the year

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2 hours ago, jchapman said:

I think Kem out-wrestled Hall on Friday.  I think Kem wrestled his "A" game, and Hall did not wrestle his "A" game (and yes Kem could have had something to do with this).  I think Hall's "A" game beats Kem's "A" game.

I was worried the whole time

hall is very dangerous 

kem may have cracked the code

maybe more can follow

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4 hours ago, Mokoma said:

Did you watch the match?  I'm not saying he gave up, but he wrestled differently than normal.  His head was down most of the remainder of the match and he didn't show his usual fire or explosiveness from that point on out.

We will see what happens next match.  You're entitled to any opinion you want, but mine is that he will win a fairly controlled match at big tens.

 

 

How often in his career has Hall wrestled from being behind?  He is s 6x state champ.

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