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Wrestleknownothing

Spey "defense" on FRL today was brutal

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12 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

After threatening to mute everyone on Twitter who disagreed with his rankings method Spey was on FRL this morning with tail deeply between his legs. Seems obvious that the higher ups at Flo got to him and reminded him that he worked for a website that was supported by user subscriptions (oh, and a fair bit of mortgage ads) and that perhaps blocking his dues paying customers on Twitter was not the optimal business model. 

Probably the funniest part is when he tries to reconcile his method with the opposite method used by Nomad when doing dual rankings. Nomad says all results count. Spey says injury defaults do not count. Then he tries to claim that his method is identical to Nomad's by saying it is just like a rain out for a team. Then he walked that silliness back and said it is like when a coach pulls his team from the mat without finishing a dual. It was almost uncomfortable watching him squirm. Almost.

I think the funniest part about all of this is why we even care about what Spey has to say.  If I followed him on Twitter I would have begged him to mute me but since I don't I'll call it out here.  I did however see the retweet from Flo so I had to fight the urge to follow Spey just so that he could mute me. 

Spey's threat was a typical "take my ball and go home" response to criticism.  Highly immature and not what is expected from a sports journalist (or whatever you'd like to call him).  Backsliding on FRL is even more gutless. 

Although if you think about it, everything he did (agreeable or not) created buzz, chatter and more clicks to FLO (and Rocket Mortgage adds) so guess who wins in the end?

 

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2 hours ago, unknown said:

the "FLO" way.  someone disagrees with them on social media, and they go right to the block button.  thin skin is an understatement.  Pyles, Nomad and Spey are the worst.  Hey Spey or Jargon Hasek  go rent some apartments

my unknown friend, you are unmuted, unblocked and you have my attention on this board. By all means, please provide any useful feedback you think I may be missing on twitter right now. 

I have also never rented an apartment to anyone in my life, but I am impressed that you know that I used to work in the real estate category. I am flattered!

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4 minutes ago, Gasman1 said:

I think the funniest part about all of this is why we even care about what Spey has to say.  If I followed him on Twitter I would have begged him to mute me but since I don't I'll call it out here.  I did however see the retweet from Flo so I had to fight the urge to follow Spey just so that he could mute me. 

Spey's threat was a typical "take my ball and go home" response to criticism.  Highly immature and not what is expected from a sports journalist (or whatever you'd like to call him).  Backsliding on FRL is even more gutless. 

Although if you think about it, everything he did (agreeable or not) created buzz, chatter and more clicks to FLO (and Rocket Mortgage adds) so guess who wins in the end?

 

The ball is in your court now Gasman1, please provide mature feedback and I will be receptive to it. Thank you!

ps we have new ads now

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8 hours ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

Nomad doesn't do the dual meet rankings, Bratke does. We talked today and we both agree that both sets of rankings are philosophically and methodically consistant. Sorry I didn't do a better job of explaining why that is the case. Maybe one day I'll get the point across. 

I also didn't block anyone, tho I did mute some folks on twitter. Hasn't come up with the bosses yet mute but maybe I'll be forced to unmute everyone or perhaps just delete my account and just use burners. we shall see! 

bottom line tho is thank you for watching. I much prefer that and some critiques and negative feedback than no one paying attention at all!

i mean, it's literally a matter of minutes in the day, but I am still interested in watching the Mauller Lewallen match. if anyone wants to send me a link I would be much obliged!

also call me think skinned one more time, i dare you!

While I have your attention, Jaroslav, I thought I might bring up a few other items that stood out to me from the broadcast. You brought up an argument (and it was repeated above) for not assessing injury defaults. When stating that you never know what would have happened after the injury (i.e. a comeback for the trailing wrestler) that the guy who is wrestling better loses "all the time". That is both not true and a lazy argument, especially for a guy who used stochastic correctly in a sentence.

I am not advocating counting injury defaults or not counting injury defaults, but to counter the argument that what we saw (two cradles, two back exposures) would "all the time" be undone by what we did not see and what actually happens quite rarely (the wrestler wrestling better loses) is a very weak defense of your method. You are better off just acknowledging there are valid arguments for including injury defaults, but you have chosen not to.

P.S. The single most cringe worthy moment was when you twice referred to Willy Saylor (sp?) as "another guy". I get that there is a law suit, but going with the "He Who Shall Not Be Named" approach is such bad form.

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3 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

While I have your attention, Jaroslav, I thought I might bring up a few other items that stood out to me from the broadcast. You brought up an argument (and it was repeated above) for not assessing injury defaults. When stating that you never know what would have happened after the injury (i.e. a comeback for the trailing wrestler) that the guy who is wrestling better loses "all the time". That is both not true and a lazy argument, especially for a guy who used stochastic correctly in a sentence.

I am not advocating counting injury defaults or not counting injury defaults, but to counter the argument that what we saw (two cradles, two back exposures) would "all the time" be undone by what we did not see and what actually happens quite rarely (the wrestler wrestling better loses) is a very weak defense of your method. You are better off just acknowledging there are valid arguments for including injury defaults, but you have chosen not to.

P.S. The single most cringe worthy moment was when you twice referred to Willy Saylor (sp?) as "another guy". I get that there is a law suit, but going with the "He Who Shall Not Be Named" approach is such bad form.

thank you for acknowledging that I used 'stochastic' correctly. 

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38 minutes ago, Gasman1 said:

I think the funniest part about all of this is why we even care about what Spey has to say.

This.

This the same person who cherrypicked heavily so that Cornell be named 'Lightweight U.'

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10 hours ago, VakAttack said:

He was clearly kidding with his Tweet, and he explained his reasoning regarding INJ DFT.  He says Nolf wasn't penalized a few years ago under the same idea even though he technically "lost" the match.  It's a process decision, you can't just go thru and determine which INJ DFTs should count for seeding and which ones should not, including the fact that you ahve no idea what happens at the end of a match, with the Rohn-Lambrecht (still hurts to this day) example prominently mentioned.  Ranking is different then seeding, which I think will be affected by the match at B1Gs.

I guess one could argue that Nolf was "penalized" going into Big Tens that year as he received the #2 seed - https://arena.flowrestling.org/event/43b26915-17cb-048a-0b4d-d0f00d1df6f7, however Kemerer was "also" undefeated going into the B10 tournament.

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2 hours ago, Housebuye said:

We see guys get comebacks all the time. We see worse wrestlers beat better wrestlers constantly. 
  
Being ahead at any given point in a match doesn’t mean you will win. 
  
Especially with a guy like Desanto, how could you possible count him out from a comeback? He is often attacking late in matches. He is in Carver, where he has pulled off last minute wins multiple times against guys better than him. I’m not saying he would have won, but the whole point is we don’t know. 
  
I agree with Spey. Leaving the discretion up to the rankers about who won the match and whether it should be counted is not a good strategy. 
 

I meant no discredit to Desanto and his style. I mean to credit RBY for wrestling the match he did and winning that match. Of the time they were both on the mat on Friday night, RBY won. Clearly.

You can't credit someone for something that didn't happen.

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32 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I guess one could argue that Nolf was "penalized" going into Big Tens that year as he received the #2 seed - https://arena.flowrestling.org/event/43b26915-17cb-048a-0b4d-d0f00d1df6f7, however Kemerer was "also" undefeated going into the B10 tournament.

Nolf was seeded 6th at NCAA's that year. Helped PSU beat Ohio State when he was able to face Micah in the quarters. 

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41 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I don't really follow Flo's rankings, but Spey, are you saying there is absolutely no subjectivity to the rankings?

as long as a human involved there will be some subjectivity, but the goal is to remove as much subjectivity as possible. I think we can all agree that rankings should have as little bias as possible. 

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If I had a ranker's oath that I got to write it would go something like this:

1. I will use common sense

2. I will be subjective and will not adhere to strict formulaic nonsense

3. I sure as heck will rank true freshmen

4. Anyone who hates my ranker's oath should stick with Flo Rankings that make no allowance for lots of things that matter.

Real Woods is still 9th? Good lawdy, lawdy that makes no sense.

 

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4 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Two things where one led to the other. Why is this an issue for you?

Because the debate re: RBY/Desanto is about will the actual match when the Injury default happened effect his seeding, not will it lead to him MFF'ing out of Big 10's.

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2 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Because the debate re: RBY/Desanto is about will the actual match when the Injury default happened effect his seeding, not will it lead to him MFF'ing out of Big 10's.

Well, one, it will effect his seeding. Two, that could have further implications that could effect seeding at NCAA's if he Mff out of Big10's. There. 

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Jaroslav, I don't really care how the rankings play out.  I follow flo rankings and sometimes have a different opinion but never feel the need to complain about it.  I don't know the exact words you used but my understanding of what you said about an injury default not counting against a wrestler is that a lower ranked wrestler would not jump a higher ranked wrestler in the event of an injury default by the higher ranked wrestle and this would be applied consistently across the board.  Maybe that interpretation is wrong.  As a hypothetical situation, if the RBY/AD match was half way through the third period, there had been no indication of injury up to that point, and RBY was winning something like 12-2 or 11-3 (clearly in control), then the injury occurred.  Would you keep the rankings the same?  

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18 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Well, one, it will effect his seeding. Two, that could have further implications that could effect seeding at NCAA's if he Mff out of Big10's. There. 

I agree it will effect his seeding.  Should at least.

The comparison was made to Nolf/VanBrill where it's not totally clear if it effected his seeding.   He was seeded 2nd at Big 10's, however the #1 seed (Kemerer) was "also" undefeated.    I don't see the problem with differentiating the two situations (Desanto/RBY and Nolf/VanBrill) as they were completely different. 

Edit: All right I guess you can say it effected his seeding at Big Ten's because I assume if not for that "loss" he would have been #1.    But housebye's earlier post is true: rankings do effect seeding because if the Coach's rank is a criteria a lot of them probably look at the other rankings.

Edited by 1032004

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12 minutes ago, gdub said:

Jaroslav, I don't really care how the rankings play out.  I follow flo rankings and sometimes have a different opinion but never feel the need to complain about it.  I don't know the exact words you used but my understanding of what you said about an injury default not counting against a wrestler is that a lower ranked wrestler would not jump a higher ranked wrestler in the event of an injury default by the higher ranked wrestle and this would be applied consistently across the board.  Maybe that interpretation is wrong.  As a hypothetical situation, if the RBY/AD match was half way through the third period, there had been no indication of injury up to that point, and RBY was winning something like 12-2 or 11-3 (clearly in control), then the injury occurred.  Would you keep the rankings the same?  

yeah it would have to be a pretty extreme situation where the lower ranked guy was dominating and then injury defaulted super late in the match, but even then, we have Rob Rohn over Josh Lambrecht to remind us why we follow the Ranker's Oath. So we'd still probably not factor in the result of the injury default in the situation you describe. 

 

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3 hours ago, 1032004 said:

How do you get 11-1? Are you giving RBY 2 NF for the first cradle and 4 for the second?

Based on what actually happened he could've gotten 2 NF at the end which would've been 7-1.  And then would've had choice again.

I can see what he is saying, if he is thinking along the same lines as I was.  I think a number of officials would have awarded a takedown on that first cradle (2 more), and I also think a number of officials would have gotten a one count before stopping the second cradle (2 NF).  Which would make it 9-1 instead of 11, but still I see what he is getting at.

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