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Scorenomore

Can we put the Cox question to bed?

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After the Iranian teched Bo Nickal and then pinned Kyle Snyder is there any reason to think that Cox is going to go to 97kg?  Sad + Iranian is the match people want to see.  Cox was in no position to tech an underweight Nickal and although I have seen him get the better of Snyder, he is in no position to tech or pin Snyder - and Snyder has proven to be pinnable now on multiple occasions.  

Cox goes 86kg - end of story.  

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In that scenario, is it Taylor that sits and waits in the finals? Does Cox get any benefit for being a returning world medalist / champion at 92 kg?

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1 hour ago, Scorenomore said:

After the Iranian teched Bo Nickal and then pinned Kyle Snyder is there any reason to think that Cox is going to go to 97kg?  Sad + Iranian is the match people want to see.  Cox was in no position to tech an underweight Nickal and although I have seen him get the better of Snyder, he is in no position to tech or pin Snyder - and Snyder has proven to be pinnable now on multiple occasions.  

Cox goes 86kg - end of story.  

I firmly believe if Cox is going 86, it was established in his own mind well before Rome.  

 

1 hour ago, kimura said:

In that scenario, is it Taylor that sits and waits in the finals? Does Cox get any benefit for being a returning world medalist / champion at 92 kg?

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Taylor gets nada. Cox would be sitting in the semi's on the other half of the bracket of the 1 seed (unless he in fact gets the 1)

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Taylor gets nada. Cox would be sitting in the semi's on the other half of the bracket of the 1 seed (unless he in fact gets the 1)
So Taylor gets nothing because his medal was not in the most recent cycle?
And when you say he's sitting in the semis, does that mean that he has not competed prior to the semi finals. He is just waiting in the semis based on... What?

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3 minutes ago, kimura said:

So Taylor gets nothing because his medal was not in the most recent cycle?
And when you say he's sitting in the semis, does that mean that he has not competed prior to the semi finals. He is just waiting in the semis based on... What?

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Based on the selection procedures created by USA Wrestling and approved by the US Olympic Committee.  Regarding Taylor, yes that rule of bye to the finals only applies to the previous year's WCs (so only 2019).  As for Cox, a medalist coming from a non olympic wait receives a bye to the semi's of the challenge tournament.

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Taylor gets nothing because he did not medal at 2019 senior worlds.

Cox and Dake earned byes to the semi-finals for 2019 medals at non-olympic weights.

Burroughs and Snyder earned byes to the best of 3 finals for 2019 medals at olympic weights.

If Cox goes 86 he will need to win one match on Day 1, and then go to the best of three finals against whoever comes out the other side of the bracket on Day 2. If Cox goes 97 he will need to win two matches on Day 1, and then wrestle-off best of three against Snyder on Day 2.

Dake is going 74 and will need to win two matches on Day 1, and then go to the best of three on Day 2 against Burroughs

Edited by bnwtwg

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3 minutes ago, kimura said:

We are going to be leaving a lot of talent at home.

At least two world champs will be watching from home. It's a good problem for USAW to have, but will be a tough pill for fans to swallow if whoever prevails at each weight brings home anything less than gold.

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45 minutes ago, kimura said:

We are going to be leaving a lot of talent at home.

Welcome to Russia problems....even in ten weight world championship years.  I think we can all agree we hope this becomes an even bigger "problem" for the US in years to come.

Edited by Lurker

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I don't think there's any question that that J'Den wants to wrestle at 86kg, so there's nothing to put to bed there. The question is whether he can make 86 and more importantly, whether he can be effective. He's literally said that it's a tough cut for him, and that was under the old weigh-in rules.

Cox is fortunate that Taylor and Downey aren't pulling anything funny by sitting out of Pan Ams. At least I think Cox would be the third in line to go. He would have to go compete then be forced to make weight again in two weeks for trials.

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1 hour ago, pamela said:

I don't think there's any question that that J'Den wants to wrestle at 86kg, so there's nothing to put to bed there. The question is whether he can make 86 and more importantly, whether he can be effective. He's literally said that it's a tough cut for him, and that was under the old weigh-in rules.

Cox is fortunate that Taylor and Downey aren't pulling anything funny by sitting out of Pan Ams. At least I think Cox would be the third in line to go. He would have to go compete then be forced to make weight again in two weeks for trials.

Zaddick and Cody were very methodical in putting together selection procedures for the Pan Am qual. Rightfully so. 

Edited by Lurker

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1 hour ago, pamela said:

I don't think there's any question that that J'Den wants to wrestle at 86kg, so there's nothing to put to bed there. The question is whether he can make 86 and more importantly, whether he can be effective. He's literally said that it's a tough cut for him, and that was under the old weigh-in rules.

Cox is fortunate that Taylor and Downey aren't pulling anything funny by sitting out of Pan Ams. At least I think Cox would be the third in line to go. He would have to go compete then be forced to make weight again in two weeks for trials.

Why couldn't Cox do the same and sit out? 

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8 minutes ago, Gantry said:

Why couldn't Cox do the same and sit out? 

He could. But I think the thing he’d have to think about (and Taylor too), is do I want to go and try to qualify the weight a couple weeks before the trials in South America, or a couple weeks after in Europe. Big difference in the depths of the field. 

Edited by Lurker

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7 hours ago, Lurker said:

Welcome to Russia problems....even in ten weight world championship years.  I think we can all agree we hope this becomes an even bigger "problem" for the US in years to come.

A good reason to allow two wrestlers per weight(qualified) for each team.

So what if a team places 1st and 2nd at one or more weights. It would give more wrestlers a chance to compete and give the fans even better wrestling to watch.

Now change the format to an honest double elimination tournament and you have improved it even more. No more "one and done" as every entrant is guaranteed two matches. Again, fans benefit and wrestlers get a chance to move up without having to rely on the guy who beat them moving up.

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7 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Ok, so DT on one side, Cox on the other.  Everyone but blue dragon is a happy camper.

Yep. It will be a travesty if these two are not on opposite sides. And that's why I came up with my conspiracy theory about the selection criteria for Pan Ams being devised to favor Taylor over PDIII. Not only will we actually get the weight qualified, but it will allow DT to get the 1 seed for OTTs, putting him opposite J'den.

If either of them gets beaten prior to the finals, that's on them, but if (when) they do meet, it should be a best of 3.

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12 hours ago, WillieBoy said:

A good reason to allow two wrestlers per weight(qualified) for each team.

So what if a team places 1st and 2nd at one or more weights. It would give more wrestlers a chance to compete and give the fans even better wrestling to watch.

Now change the format to an honest double elimination tournament and you have improved it even more. No more "one and done" as every entrant is guaranteed two matches. Again, fans benefit and wrestlers get a chance to move up without having to rely on the guy who beat them moving up.

I’m not at all a fan of two entries per country. First it would not give more athletes a chance to compete, it would give more athletes from the same country the chance to compete. They just shrank the bracket, they are not going to increase the bracket to accommodate more athletes from the same country. Second, with international free agency as it is today, you’re going to have Bahrain, etc hire two Russians to fill their slots. There’s already enough Russians in the bracket. 
 

It’s just a difference of opinion and I respect yours, but to me the last thing I would want to see in the olympics is two entries from one country.  And to your other point, I do wish there was a full consolation bracket. 

Edited by Lurker

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38 minutes ago, Lurker said:

It’s not automatic but likely. 

See redline, please check for accuracy I've only had two cups of coffee so far lol

Seeding Criteria

a. A 2019 World Championship team member who qualifies the weight for the 2020 Olympic Games will automatically receive the #1 seed at the same weight category in which he qualified, with medalists earning an automatic berth to Part Two as explained below.  The 2019 world team member was PD3, so only he could receive the #1 auto-seed if he qualifies at Pan-Ams. But Taylor is slotted for Pan-Ams currently so this is null.

 

b. Ranked criteria to be used when voting on seeds will be limited to the following:

      i. Head to head within the last year.  The “last year” is defined as the April 2019 U.S. Open up to the 2020 U.S. Olympic Team Trials ‐  Wrestling.  

               1. If there is a split in matches, the last win determines the top seed.  

I believe that means the following by criteria, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, and these are only in alphabetical order NOT a potential seeding order:

Dieringer over PD3 (Matteo Pelicone '20) // Martin over Dieringer (US Open Dec '19) // PD3 over Martin (April '19 US Open) // Zahid over Dieringer (Matteo Pelicone '20) // Zahid over Martin (US Open Dec '19) // Taylor over no one (no UWW competition between April 2019 US Open to present)

     ii. Common opponents within the “last year” as defined above. Higher importance seeding criteria b.i.1 renders this null and void for this particular weight class until at least the #3 seed (assuming Cox does not receive a seed)

     iii. Medalist at a United World Wrestling (UWW) calendar event within the “last year.” N/A for 2019

     iv. Majority vote will decide the higher seed if there are multiple medalists from UWW calendar events within the “last year.” N/A for 2019 [Dake is going 74 rendering this a moot point]

 

c. If there is one 2019 medalist from a UWW calendar event entering the Olympic weight category, that individual will be placed in the bottom semifinal (Part One). Cox will be placed on the bottom semifinal if he chooses to go 86

 

d. If there are two 2019 medalists from UWW calendar event(s) entering the Olympic weight, the seeding committee will determine which individual will be placed in both the top and bottom semifinal (Part One). N/A for 2019 [Dake is going 74 rendering this a moot point]

Edited by bnwtwg
b.i.1. i forgot PD3 over Martin

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9 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

See redline, please check for accuracy I've only had two cups of coffee so far lol

Seeding Criteria

a. A 2019 World Championship team member who qualifies the weight for the 2020 Olympic Games will automatically receive the #1 seed at the same weight category in which he qualified, with medalists earning an automatic berth to Part Two as explained below.  The 2019 world team member was PD3, so only he could receive the #1 auto-seed if he qualifies at Pan-Ams. But Taylor is slotted for Pan-Ams currently so this is null.

 

b. Ranked criteria to be used when voting on seeds will be limited to the following:

      i. Head to head within the last year.  The “last year” is defined as the April 2019 U.S. Open up to the 2020 U.S. Olympic Team Trials ‐  Wrestling.  

               1. If there is a split in matches, the last win determines the top seed.  

I believe that means the following by criteria, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, and these are only in alphabetical order NOT a potential seeding order:

Dieringer over PD3 (Matteo Pelicone '20) // Martin over Dieringer (US Open Dec '19) // PD3 over Martin (April '19 US Open) // Zahid over Dieringer (Matteo Pelicone '20) // Zahid over Martin (US Open Dec '19) // Taylor over no one (no UWW competition between April 2019 US Open to present)

     ii. Common opponents within the “last year” as defined above. Higher importance seeding criteria b.i.1 renders this null and void for this particular weight class until at least the #3 seed (assuming Cox does not receive a seed)

     iii. Medalist at a United World Wrestling (UWW) calendar event within the “last year.” N/A for 2019

     iv. Majority vote will decide the higher seed if there are multiple medalists from UWW calendar events within the “last year.” N/A for 2019 [Dake is going 74 rendering this a moot point]

 

c. If there is one 2019 medalist from a UWW calendar event entering the Olympic weight category, that individual will be placed in the bottom semifinal (Part One). Cox will be placed on the bottom semifinal if he chooses to go 86

 

d. If there are two 2019 medalists from UWW calendar event(s) entering the Olympic weight, the seeding committee will determine which individual will be placed in both the top and bottom semifinal (Part One). N/A for 2019 [Dake is going 74 rendering this a moot point]

So this is a good example of where I’ve read the criteria and everything but not really delved into who could fall where. But by the looks of this Taylor would have zero criteria for seeding. That could be reaaaal interesting. 

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Given how Cox is slotted to go to the bottom semi, I would think this is the realistic seeding order, which achieves the best possible scenario of giving Taylor and Cox the opportunity to meet in a best of 3 as long as they perform as expected. If everything is scratch then Taylor will need to beat Ringer and Cox will need to beat Zahid. I can see Heflin busting up the bracket depending which side he gets seeded on. Too bad Nickal is wasting his time at 97 or else this would be an even more interesting bracket.

1 Taylor

2 Valencia

3 Martin

4 Dieringer

5 PD3

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So this is a good example of where I’ve read the criteria and everything but not really delved into who could fall where. But by the looks of this Taylor would have zero criteria for seeding. That could be reaaaal interesting. 
The only way USA Wrestling could screw this up is by having Cox and Taylor meet before the best of three.

No one else is beating either one if they're healthy.

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