Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
1032004

PA Publics Sending Out Girls to Force Forfeits From Notre Dame

Recommended Posts

Seems to be a trend recently.

Curious of themat.com's thoughts on this? 

There are so many things wrong with this, in order IMO:
1.  Super dumb rule by the diocese to not allow them to compete against girls (I think they can wrestle them in individual states?)

2.  Public schools "making a stand" against "recruiting" by doing this despite them probably "recruiting" themselves

3.  The public schools trying to  justify doing this by saying "these girls have been a part of the team the whole year!" yet not wrestling them in any other matches

4.  PA not having a girl's division

5.  PA not having separate divisions for publics and privates for team states

Edited by 1032004

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, HokieHWT said:

PA does have different pubic and private school division. The private school teams wrestle in it to qualify for National Preps. I think private schools can choose which to participate in.

Is that for individual or team?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Is that for individual or team?

I don’t think private states have team dual tournaments. I only follow The Hill School and am basing my information off their schedule.

i know right before they became a household name, Bethlehem Catholic was private and it made a lot of news articles when they were public because of the recruiting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, HokieHWT said:

I don’t think private states have team dual tournaments. I only follow The Hill School and am basing my information off their schedule.

i know right before they became a household name, Bethlehem Catholic was private and it made a lot of news articles when they were public because of the recruiting.

Yeah I’m talking about the team tournament.   I think separating public and private for team states makes sense.   Individual should be combined IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are there other Diocese/Archdiocese guidelines outside  of Pennsylvania that Prohibit Parochial School boys from wrestling? First HS bout I saw this season was a Girl from the John Carroll school (a catholic school in Baltimore), Would it not be a good way for Becahi, or whoever) to schedule them)   

----------------------------

Bethlehem Catholic Obviously is not Public. It was once part of the PCIAA(?), before Joining the PIAA 

Prior to the 1972 PIAA was almost exclusively "ordinary" Public schools outside of the City of Philadelphia. There may have been a few vo-techs with sports. not sure. The one "oddball" was the Commonwealth owned Scotland School for Orphans of Military Veterans (it closed about 15 years ago after maybe 100 years) . Catholic schools had their own state championships (not including Phila). The most prominent Non-catholic school at that time was Milton Hershey School-an Orphanage, a couple of NAtional Preps team title, Bob Fehrs of course their greatest wrestler. A few Prep schools, some boarding, Joined the PIAA. Notably Shady Side Academy(the were AA dual 2nd in about 2001 and 2009, now their program no longer exists.

Philadelphia Public schools were added circa 2002. Phila Catholic Schools exactly 2 years later.

Still there are 20 Private schools (some boarding, some not)  in Pennsylvania but not PIAA, Most famously,  Wyoming Sem, Malvern Prep, Hill School. They of course go thru national Preps, not PIAA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has this actually affected the outcome of a meet? 

Props to them. The private schools exploit the rules to win by recruiting from neighboring communities and schools, while the publics exploit the rules to win by recruiting from their own hallways. Which one is worse? 

Edited by ptz305

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, ptz305 said:

Has this actually affected the outcome of a meet? 

Props to them. The private schools exploit the rules to win by recruiting from neighboring communities and schools, while the publics exploit the rules to win by recruiting from their own hallways. Which one is worse? 

Saucon Valley has 3 times used a girl against Notre Dame Green Pond. Likely made the difference in the District 11 Final And State Dual Semi Finals. I really don't know of any others. 

In 1973, when Most Catholic schools joined the PIAA, the rules were pretty much non existent. About 10 years later, when rules for co-ops were formulated, boundary rules also were addressed. Public school boundaries were sot of obvious. Most Catholic school boundaries. Lancaster Catholic would draw from Lancaster County,, Lebanon Catholic from Lebanon County, Reading/Berks County would draw from Berks County. Other Catholic Schools were more complex boundaries, Not all York county kids would go to York Catholic, There are two other Catholic HS just across the border, so Other Private schools are border impracticable. Public schools were suppose to only co-op with other Publics, Catholics with other Catholics.

But those rules have seemingly gone by the wayside. I have seen a public school with wrestling host a Catholic HS and a fundamentalist Christian School.

Obviously, we have observed all sorts of recruiting at some public schools. But this pales to Catholic schools, I have seen the case of a Brother and sister, where the boy played Basketball at the Catholic School with the Better Boys B-Ball program, and his sister went to the other Catholic school, with more of a girls B-Ball tradition 

 

 

 

  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

They aren't allowed to wrestle for or against Pa Diocese schools.

If the girls are a part of the team and made weight to wrestle there shouldn't be an issue.   

It appears that the Diocese schools need to get on board or continue to lose.   I don't see female wrestling going away anytime soon.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Mphillips said:

If the girls are allowed to wrestle...what is the issue with the girls being able to take a forfeit for their team?

Because they're not the starter.   They're only sending them out to "force" NDGP to forfeit.  Apparently the girl from Saucon Valley was 3-0 for the season...all FF's from NDGP (according to PA-wrestling.com)

Edited by 1032004

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, 1032004 said:

Because they're not the starter.   They're only sending them out to "force" NDGP to forfeit.   I think it was stated that the girl from Saucon Valley was 3-0 for the season...all FF's from NDGP.

I'm not trying to be difficult. Bear with me.  

 So the boys (starters) weren't available OR the boys (starters) were replaced by the ladies (back-ups) for the sole purpose of receiving a forfeit?  If the latter...it's hard to fathom a coach telling his starting 113lb'er (for example) he's not gonna wrestle for fear that he'll lose.   That's pretty despicable and very sleazy. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Mphillips said:

I'm not trying to be difficult. Bear with me.  

 So the boys (starters) weren't available OR the boys (starters) were replaced by the ladies (back-ups) for the sole purpose of receiving a forfeit?  If the latter...it's hard to fathom a coach telling his starting 113lb'er (for example) he's not gonna wrestle for fear that he'll lose.   That's pretty despicable and very sleazy. 

They were replaced for the sole purpose of receiving a forfeit.  I don't think it's really for "fear of losing," but just for the guaranteed six points.   Looks like they won the state consi semi match by 1 for example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

They were replaced for the sole purpose of receiving a forfeit.  I don't think it's really for "fear of losing," but just for the guaranteed six points.   Looks like they won the state consi semi match by 1 for example.

Okay.  Thank you for the patience. 

That's a sleazy way to operate.  I betcha those kids replaced after a season of wrestling are pretty confused.   What a poor, "shaper of youth's."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

When the Ciasullis got to HS, Andrew wrestled for Easton and the sister Sara Jane stayed at Pburg.

Did Sara Jane stay with Grandparents, friends, Mother?

I once knew two brothers , a year apart, Both Heavyweights, The younger moved in with his girlfriends family. Thus to compete, When they wrestled head to head that year, there was many a penalty part.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, RichB said:

Did Sara Jane stay with Grandparents, friends, Mother?

I once knew two brothers , a year apart, Both Heavyweights, The younger moved in with his girlfriends family. Thus to compete, When they wrestled head to head that year, there was many a penalty part.

Mike flipped houses. They lived in or near Flemington, then as the kids approached HS age (I think she already was of age)  they bought a house in Lopatcong near (geographically not chronologically) where I went to my one room schoolhouse grades 2-4. She's the oldest I believe. Within a few months he bought another house near the Palmer Mall in Easton. She stayed in Lopat and Andrew transferred to Easton after a couple months at Pburg. I always got a kick out of the Pburg people complaining as if they could claim them. Hunterdon Central might have a claim but not Pburg.

Edited by gimpeltf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Mphillips said:

Okay.  Thank you for the patience. 

That's a sleazy way to operate.  I betcha those kids replaced after a season of wrestling are pretty confused.   What a poor, "shaper of youth's."

Pretty much and the crazy thing is multiple coaches have done it.  I guess they’re telling themselves that they are protesting against “recruiting.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Admitting that private schools have an advantage because there are no school district boundries, it is absolutely dirty to win a dual by throwing out girls against a catholic school.

What most PIAA coaches don't understand, their dirty tactics and negativity are actually going to hurt them more moving forward.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/10/2020 at 10:02 AM, RichB said:

Saucon Valley has 3 times used a girl against Notre Dame Green Pond. Likely made the difference in the District 11 Final And State Dual Semi Finals. I really don't know of any others. 

In 1973, when Most Catholic schools joined the PIAA, the rules were pretty much non existent. About 10 years later, when rules for co-ops were formulated, boundary rules also were addressed. Public school boundaries were sot of obvious. Most Catholic school boundaries. Lancaster Catholic would draw from Lancaster County,, Lebanon Catholic from Lebanon County, Reading/Berks County would draw from Berks County. Other Catholic Schools were more complex boundaries, Not all York county kids would go to York Catholic, There are two other Catholic HS just across the border, so Other Private schools are border impracticable. Public schools were suppose to only co-op with other Publics, Catholics with other Catholics.

But those rules have seemingly gone by the wayside. I have seen a public school with wrestling host a Catholic HS and a fundamentalist Christian School.

Obviously, we have observed all sorts of recruiting at some public schools. But this pales to Catholic schools, I have seen the case of a Brother and sister, where the boy played Basketball at the Catholic School with the Better Boys B-Ball program, and his sister went to the other Catholic school, with more of a girls B-Ball tradition 

 

 

 

  

The coach of SV should look at himself instead of being bitter losing studs to ND.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How does it work in PA? I get that private school's have to recruit to fill their schools, and I am sure plenty target really good athletes.  I am guessing that there are some scholarships and financial aid opportunities available, but I would have thought most have to pay something out of pocket in addition to meeting whatever test/enrollment requirements the school has.  Why would the public schools care or want to stick it to the private institutions in some wrestling meet?

It could be, and likely is, that I don't understand the way it is in PA.  I am in Omaha, NE.  Although there are boundaries for each public school, kids have more of a choice in which school they attend. There are also private options, of which my kids attend.  The classes here are enrollment based so private and public compete,  though I would say most private schools are in lower classes due to enrollment size.  So while recruiting can and does take place, I have never really experienced something like this.  I think the issue is probably greater with public vs public since kids often have a choice for schools.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pennsylvania rules prohibit transferring for Athletic purposes. The two most high profile cases I know of are: Spencer Lee. Between 8th and 9th grade his family moved from a medium sized AA school to a medium sized AAA school, There was not a lot of fuss about it because in Pa 8th grade only competes in Junior Hi, Never JV=Varsity, and because his parents legitimately changed jobs.  

Retherford was the more controversial. He won states in 9th grade, placing high on 10th. After 10th Grade he moved from one small AA school to another small school, The original school protested. His family said leaving the old school was because of bullying, (sic). eventually the District and The PIAA sided with the original school, He could not wrestle his junior year, but he did play soccer, He of course wrestled his Senior HS year.

PIAA has clarified the rules this year, and I think the Retherford ruling may become standard, I believe the school losing the kid can waive the sit out rule, and I think that will be the most normal situation.  

Edited by RichB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, RichB said:

Teasdale was the more controversial. He won states in 9th grade, placing high on 10th. After 10th Grade he moved from one small AA school to another small school, The original school protested. His family said leaving the old school was because of bullying, (sic). eventually the District and The PIAA sided with the original school, He could not wrestle his junior year, but he did play soccer, He of course wrestled his Senior HS year.

Don't you mean Retherford?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pennsylvania Catholic Schools, I am far from expert, but as I observed it seems almost all High schools are set up as 9th - 12th. Some of them are all male or all female, moreso in the very big cities. They are generally fed by k-8 Parochial schools,  maybe 2 to 12 of them for a given HS. I think  there are a few places with K-5 and a -6-8 middle school. There is not much controversy with kids brought up thru parochial schools for 9 , even for 3-5 years. 

The big controversy is Kids who are in Public school K-8 then transfer to a Catholic HS for 9-12. The Catholic school nearest me does not even try to make it look that way. Unlike the other Catholic school that brings in 7-8 grader to join the 9th graders and have a junior hi team, This one does not have a JR-Hi team, even though they could bring 7-8 graders from the 3 of their 4 Parochial schools within 5 minutes into their wrestling room to make a JH team.  (maybe they have changed in the last couple years, I doubt it though)

The other controversy is of course that if a kid is at a private school either he wants to be there, or his parents want him there,  But at a public school, there are kids attending only because that is what the law says. Thusly a private school has a bigger pool of potential athletes with the same student body size

3 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Don't you mean Retherford?

yep

  

Edited by RichB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...