Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
NJDan

Princeton: After 36 Years, an Ivy Title

Recommended Posts

33 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Universities lower admission standards for donors ... all the time though, and it’s perfectly legal.

 

Ok, if they do it all the time for donor then it ought to be easy to provide a specific example.  You provide such and I'll likewise provide you with a specific chancellor who was fired/had to resign for doing such. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Dude, it's not like the Ivies are accepting guys with sub-1K SAT scores and C averages. RIck Singer has nothing to do with it. In fact, Singer was trying to use the legitimate admissions loophole of recruited athlete preference ILLICITLY by parading a group of rich clients' children as recruited athletes when none of them were anything remotely close to D1 college athletic. 

"Lowering standards" means 1200ish SATs, not straight As, needing to get in as January admits or deferred admits pending improved GPAs, etc. Generally, the kids getting in are smart, just maybe not Ivy League smart all the time.

There's only so many recruited athlete slots at each Ivy. The sports with the biggest "impact" (read alumni donations) on the university will get favored treatment over all other sports. These sports vary by Ivy. We should all root for the Ivies at which wrestling is one such sport. lest we end up in a situation where Yale and Dartmouth happen to the sport again.

Exactly, and if you go to a half decent high school, which many top wrestling recruits do, you have to be brain dead if you can’t tutor your way up to 1200. SAT prep can easily make 200 to 300 point differences in a matter of months.

It’s even easier if you are coming from a private school, because many prep schools don’t “officially” calculate GPAs. What this means is that they report the grades, but the university doesn’t have to use the grades for the class average as reported to Princeton review/college board/etc. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, ionel said:

Ok, if they do it all the time for donor then it ought to be easy to provide a specific example.  You provide such and I'll likewise provide you with a specific chancellor who was fired/had to resign for doing such. 

Jared Kushner. Donald Trump. And many, many others. Most examples aren’t famous, but are just very rich. How do you think these schools build multi billion dollar endowments?

Edited by Billyhoyle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

 

Cornell the university doesn’t have some great need for local community college transfers that happen to be great wrestlers. There is a particular donor whose funds they like though. 

I have no idea what the academic profile of the wrestling team is. What I do know is that the ivies require the athletic recruits to be roughly in the ballpark of the school admission standards via the Academic Index. And as you well know the local community college isn’t to get them admitted, it’s to take a few credits and ease the four year academic workload while they get around the ivy no-redshirt rule.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, ugarte said:

I have no idea what the academic profile of the wrestling team is. What I do know is that the ivies require the athletic recruits to be roughly in the ballpark of the school admission standards via the Academic Index. And as you well know the local community college isn’t to get them admitted, it’s to take a few credits and ease the four year academic workload while they get around the ivy no-redshirt rule.

Why do you think the transfer system isn’t to also get around admission standards? Are they admitted to Cornell ahead of time and then defer? Even if that’s the case, do you really believe that that all of the athletes are in the ballpark of 1470 SAT scores? And by no means is this a Cornell specific problem..They are just the most egregious for wrestling at the moment, and most other schools would do the same for enough $$$.

Edited by Billyhoyle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, ionel said:

Ok, if they do it all the time for donor then it ought to be easy to provide a specific example.  You provide such and I'll likewise provide you with a specific chancellor who was fired/had to resign for doing such. 

Fired? Are you serious? University presidents are often hired for their ability to build endowments by using side doors. The term "side door" is pejorative, I get it, but the reality is that no university, even Harvard or Oxford, gets to be elite and manage an endowment that rivals the GDP of small countries by being perfectly fair in admissions. It's literally statistically impossible to do so. 

Examples of universities who hired presidents for their fundraising prowess: Duke, Brown, Notre Dame. 

Examples of people who got into an elite academic school thanks to their ability to donate: every single admit that was marked a "development candidate", and there are literally hundreds every year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Fired? Are you serious? University presidents are often hired for their ability to build endowments by using side doors. The term "side door" is pejorative, I get it, but the reality is that no university, even Harvard or Oxford, gets to be elite and manage an endowment that rivals the GDP of small countries by being perfectly fair in admissions. It's literally statistically impossible to do so. 

Examples of universities who hired presidents for their fundraising prowess: Duke, Brown, Notre Dame. 

Examples of people who got into an elite academic school thanks to their ability to donate: every single admit that was marked a "development candidate", and there are literally hundreds every year.

MIT, Caltech, and the UC system don’t compromise admissions as far as I know. But MIT has received criticism for their fundraising in other respects though. In terms of virtually every other school, you are spot on. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

MIT, Caltech, and the UC system don’t compromise admissions as far as I know. But MIT has received criticism for their fundraising in other respects though. But in terms of virtually every other school, you are spot on. 

I think Caltech doesn't, hence their relative small endowment for the caliber of academics they offer (truly elite for engineering). But MIT absolutely does, just not for athletes given their D3 status and lack of alumni who care enough about sports to compete with other Ivy+ schools. MIT's thing is endowing programs, facilities, professorships, and scholarships (in that order of most to least desirable, i.e. expensive). Just look at all the f*ckery that went on with Joi Ito and his MIT Media Lab fundraising (e.g. Jeff Epstein saga) as one example. You cannot have a top 10 endowment and not compromise admissions standards for donors. It's literally impossible in this era of increasing wealth gap in not only the US but the whole world. Caltech can get away with it because they have a small student body (1/6 or so of MIT's) and a very narrow focus on engineering.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, UC definitely does compromise admissions standards for certain types of students, especially elite athletes. Otherwise Berkeley would have never bee competitive in football (which they are episodically) and UCLA, which is now a top 30ish school and hard to get into, would never field the teams they do in the major sports.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I think Caltech doesn't, hence their relative small endowment for the caliber of academics they offer (truly elite for engineering). But MIT absolutely does, just not for athletes given their D3 status and lack of alumni who care enough about sports to compete with other Ivy+ schools. MIT's thing is endowing programs, facilities, professorships, and scholarships (in that order of most to least desirable, i.e. expensive). Just look at all the f*ckery that went on with Joi Ito and his MIT Media Lab fundraising (e.g. Jeff Epstein saga) as one example. You cannot have a top 10 endowment and not compromise admissions standards for donors. It's literally impossible in this era of increasing wealth gap in not only the US but the whole world. Caltech can get away with it because they have a small student body (1/6 or so of MIT's) and a very narrow focus on engineering.

That’s what I was referring to with MIT, but it has nothing to do with undergrad admissions. I’ve never heard of anyone buying a spot into MIT, but I have for all the ivies, Stanford, etc. I’m not sure anyone would want to go to MIT who isn’t qualified-I don’t think it’s like the ivies where there are many easy tracks academic wise.

But it’s very possible that there are examples I don’t know about..Do you know of any notable examples? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Why do you think the transfer system isn’t to also get around admission standards? Are they admitted to Cornell ahead of time and then defer? Even if that’s the case, do you really believe that that all of the athletes are in the ballpark of 1470 SAT scores? And by no means is this a Cornell specific problem..They are just the most egregious for wrestling at the moment, and most other schools would do the same for enough $$$.

Yes I believe they are admitted and defer. No I do not think the athletes on the winning wrestling team have a different academic profile from the athletes on the losing football team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Also, UC definitely does compromise admissions standards for certain types of students, especially elite athletes. Otherwise Berkeley would have never bee competitive in football (which they are episodically) and UCLA, which is now a top 30ish school and hard to get into, would never field the teams they do in the major sports.

Oh true, I forgot about Cal/UCLA football. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, ugarte said:

Yes I believe they are admitted and defer. No I do not think the athletes on the winning wrestling team have a different academic profile from the athletes on the losing football team.

How about their fencing team? How about the rest of the student body? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been informed that the 5 real Ivies with wrestling recruit athletes on three levels.

Guys (or gals) who would get in even without competing in the sport, Exceptional grades, exceptional SATs, Exceptional activities. Pretty near unlimited recruitment by coaches,

Guys who the sport is the difference maker, without being  involved, admission is iffy,

Guys who could not get in without the sport.Very limited numbers

Most of the sports at these schools can only recruit one of these categorie guys a year, Maybe 2 or 3 guys for a real big numbers sport like football or track.

still even the categorie 3 guys would still get into all but maybe a dozen other D1 Wrestling schools without the sport.

Problem is, even though wrestlers are likely a brighter group than many athletes, the number of excellent Wrestlers is limited, Even if Harvard, Columbia Brown and Penn had the same attitude as Princeton, the quality wrestlers are not in enough numbers for all to be top 25 programs

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

How about their fencing team? How about the rest of the student body? 

the first, i have no idea and don't care but i assume that the fencing team is all prep school kids who grew up with expensive test prep. the second is what every school does for all sports so you're not making any kind of a point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ugarte said:

the first, i have no idea and don't care but i assume that the fencing team is all prep school kids who grew up with expensive test prep. the second is what every school does for all sports so you're not making any kind of a point.

Here is the point: the degree to which admission standards are lowered is directly correlated with the support from alumni for the program. A program with minimal support has athletes with academic profiles that look much like the general student body. A program with ultra high profile alumni donating millions gets a community college pipeline and lots of slack in terms of recruiting standards. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was thinking more along the lines of a deep-pocketed donor who can lean on the AD to hire a really big name head coach or kickstart a capital campaign for new facilities or something like that. Again, I’m not familiar with the program but it looks like an alum has pitched in towards naming rights for the HC position there. 

Admissions is a lesser obstacle IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Here is the point: the degree to which admission standards are lowered is directly correlated with the support from alumni for the program. A program with minimal support has athletes with academic profiles that look much like the general student body. A program with ultra high profile alumni donating millions gets a community college pipeline and lots of slack in terms of recruiting standards. 

F'ing Groundhog Day on this.  Nobody is lowering admissions standards.  These schools have lower limits to academic credentials, and nobody is getting in unless they meet those lower limits.  Are there athletes who get in with less lofty academic credentials than other potential candidates?  Of course.  Same goes for musicians, nerds, poets, activists, and anyone else who stands out in some way, since the school wants a diverse student body, not 100% 4.0/1600/36 achievers.  All-State QB with a 3.5/1250?  You've got a shot at acceptance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, klehner said:

F'ing Groundhog Day on this.  Nobody is lowering admissions standards.  These schools have lower limits to academic credentials, and nobody is getting in unless they meet those lower limits.  Are there athletes who get in with less lofty academic credentials than other potential candidates?  Of course.  Same goes for musicians, nerds, poets, activists, and anyone else who stands out in some way, since the school wants a diverse student body, not 100% 4.0/1600/36 achievers.  All-State QB with a 3.5/1250?  You've got a shot at acceptance.

Exactly. An athlete (or anyone) can be admitted with below-the-student-body-average grades or test scores or whatever if they can demonstrate that they’re bringing something to the table that will enhance the educational experience for all - people with extraordinary life experiences, veterans, first family members, entrepreneurs, artists, etc. It’s a nod to the “11 types of intelligence” or however many it is, and the modern notion of liberal higher education.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Billyhoyle said:

Here is the point: the degree to which admission standards are lowered is directly correlated with the support from alumni for the program. A program with minimal support has athletes with academic profiles that look much like the general student body. A program with ultra high profile alumni donating millions gets a community college pipeline and lots of slack in terms of recruiting standards. 

you have nothing but a hunch on this. it's truthy without needing to being true. the donor money appears to manifest in facilities and recruiting budget but the only indication that there is a community college pipeline is your say-so. as far as i know none of the FLWC kids are enrolled full-time at TC3; it's more like a wrestling-centric gap year. 

Edited by ugarte

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, klehner said:

F'ing Groundhog Day on this.  Nobody is lowering admissions standards.  These schools have lower limits to academic credentials, and nobody is getting in unless they meet those lower limits.  Are there athletes who get in with less lofty academic credentials than other potential candidates?  Of course.  Same goes for musicians, nerds, poets, activists, and anyone else who stands out in some way, since the school wants a diverse student body, not 100% 4.0/1600/36 achievers.  All-State QB with a 3.5/1250?  You've got a shot at acceptance.

Right, except for athletes, the leeway each team is given correlates with the amount of $$$ alumni give. That’s why I’ve said for other schools to compete with Cornell/Princeton, it will take a very rich alumnus who can convince the admin to lower standards. 

Whether or not athletes in the Ivy League should be given preferential admission standards is a different discussion and not an argument I’m making. Btw, the ivies aren’t admitting a football/lacrosse team’s worth of musicians and activists at the lower end of academic standards. So that point of yours, while true for certain individuals, doesn’t really compare situations of similar magnitude. Honestly, it doesn’t bother me that standards are lowered for athletes. I’m just describing the way the system works, and that seems to trigger some people who want to pretend these are just regular admits who happen to also play sports. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, ugarte said:

you have nothing but a hunch on this. it's truthy without needing to being true. the donor money appears to manifest in facilities and recruiting budget but the only indication that there is a community college pipeline is your say-so. as far as i know none of the FLWC kids are enrolled full-time at TC3; it's more like a wrestling-centric gap year. 

The point about donations impacting admission standards in the ivies is not a hunch. I’m describing to you exactly how the system works from first hand knowledge. You’re correct though that I do not know the details of Cornell’s CC/redshirt pipeline and how they use it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even as a Cornell fan, I can appreciate what this win means for Princeton, and really, for all of College Wrestling - it's a good thing to see a program on the rise; this is the way the sport SHOULD be building interest.

But then, how sad that some posters always find a way to throw poop at someone else's parade. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...