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shieldofpistis

My frustration with college wrestling

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18 hours ago, ugarte said:

I think the answer is that you have to stay engaged. even if you aren't taking shots, if you aren't backing away you probably don't get dinged. what you see a lot from people winning by just a few is that they throw it in reverse to run out the clock and that isn't wrestling.

Actually if the guy stays in the center he still gets dinged.  Refs are human and stalling calls are often optics as much as anything else.

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17 minutes ago, boconnell said:

Actually if the guy stays in the center he still gets dinged.  Refs are human and stalling calls are often optics as much as anything else.

sometimes yes and sometimes no. staying in the center but sprawling back or flinching back at every hint of a shot without any offensive effort eventually does sometimes get a whistle but it's less egregious than a third period in hide-and-seek mode. i'm just explaining why i think refs call it that way.

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2 hours ago, jackwebster said:

I agree. I argued about this with russelscout a couple of weeks ago re Marinelli's spiral ride. 

One particular technique that really bugs me and that usually gets the bottom guy dinged is when the top guys flattens the bottom man out, sinks the tight waist, and pushes the near elbow away with a v-block. The top guy looks active because his butt in the air and he is driving the guy into the mat (laces up!). The bottom guy can't do jack. The best example was Borshel's ride on Henrich  in the semis

 

Yup. I don’t mind that this is allowed, as it can destroy an opponents gas tank. It should not however lead to a stall call on the bottom man. 

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15 hours ago, shieldofpistis said:
I disagree. I have never been taken down by a guy just stalking me.  I have been taken down on guys shooting on me. 

There are lots of ways to score a takedown without shooting. Joseph scored 6 on Marinelli without shooting (he shot prior to that, but that particular move was not). There are also lots of setups that one can be working for like underhooks and Russian ties that can keep a guy busy without shooting. Conversely, there are some guys that take a bunch of fake shots without ever really committing.

Edited by Crotalus

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15 minutes ago, Housebuye said:

Yup. I don’t mind that this is allowed, as it can destroy an opponents gas tank. It should not however lead to a stall call on the bottom man. 

I agree. The guy on top is already getting a riding time point. It shouldn't be a position where you rack up a bunch of stalling points too. There are times where a guy just bases out and does nothing though. Then a stalling is warranted.

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4 hours ago, ugarte said:

sometimes yes and sometimes no. staying in the center but sprawling back or flinching back at every hint of a shot without any offensive effort eventually does sometimes get a whistle but it's less egregious than a third period in hide-and-seek mode. i'm just explaining why i think refs call it that way.

The refs call it that way because one guy is winning and the other is losing.  It bears no resemblance to how they call stalling the rest of the match.

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Stalling is stalling no matter what the score.  Referees call stalling with scores of 0-0 based on criteria.  
 

No push out point.  No no no no.  I would go so far as to do this:

1. No points awarded for stalling.

2.  3 stall calls and you get DQed.  

3.  Hanging on the head/neck with two hands and no offensive action in 6 seconds is stalling.  (Basically means you must disengage in 5 seconds).

4.  Russian 2 on 1 with no offensive move in 6 seconds is stalling (you only get 5 seconds to set something up.). 
 

I wouldn’t like to see “counts” on those, but if it is going nowhere, hanging there is stalling.  
 

Also, I think 1-0 wins are an abomination.  Only second to 1-1 freestyle wins where both points were scored from shot clock violations.  The person who sandbagged the whole first period gets the win because they forced a passivity in the second.  I stop watching freestyle matches if the first period is 1-0.

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21 hours ago, ugarte said:

sometimes yes and sometimes no. staying in the center but sprawling back or flinching back at every hint of a shot without any offensive effort eventually does sometimes get a whistle but it's less egregious than a third period in hide-and-seek mode. i'm just explaining why i think refs call it that way.

My overall point in starting the thread is consistency.  If they are going to be hyper sensitive in the 3rd period than fine and not really count the first two that much--- fine.  I'm ok with that.  As long as everyone knows it.  It should be in the rule book.  If not, then all the periods should be called evenly. 

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21 hours ago, TobusRex said:

What's always bothered me is how the refs don't punish guys who lock up and push, and NEVER shoot. The guy getting pushed around takes shots sometimes but will be mostly likely to get called for "passivity", but the pusher never gets in trouble.

That's kind of what this is about.  Guys who do pushing but no shooting often get refs to call stall calls on opponents. 

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21 hours ago, Crotalus said:

There are lots of ways to score a takedown without shooting. Joseph scored 6 on Marinelli without shooting (he shot prior to that, but that particular move was not). There are also lots of setups that one can be working for like underhooks and Russian ties that can keep a guy busy without shooting. Conversely, there are some guys that take a bunch of fake shots without ever really committing.

That is why at the beginning of the thread in this hypothetic situation I tried to distinguish between committed shots and fake shots----and that the guy who got a stall call against him in the 3rd took committed shots in the first two periods.  

In the third stalkers usually take a bunch of fake shots and look busy but aren't committed----Look, if there were just consistency I'd be happy. 

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On 2/11/2020 at 6:15 PM, GockeS said:

you must hate PSU

Happens with almost every wrestler.  But it is allowed UNTIL the ref deems it stalling.  OR someone has a lead, or if someone is preventing a major.  
 

passivity is different than stalling.  College should call it passivity.  
 

Certain holds and tie ups can lead to scoring to open new positions or angles, but those holds should be limited in time.  Like the Russian 2on1.  6 seconds should be enough time to be allowed to hold a single upper limb with BOTH hands.  Maybe a ref allows it  for a few more seconds if a score or follow on move is imminent.  Like when pare terre is allowed for more than 15 seconds because a turn is imminent.  
 

my point is that there are MANY other changes that can happen which will achieve the same end state without making college wrestling a sumo match.  
 

enacting a push out point will take away edge wrestling and turn college into sumo.  On the other hand, limiting the time a wrestler can engage in an overpowering hold forces them to move to something different.

first thing is defining what we don’t want to see:  stalling or passivity?  Stalling implies you are winning and sitting on a lead.  Passivity can be called for not being aggressive.  A referee would be more prone to call passivity than stalling because stalling makes it seem like the other wrestler is cheating.  It is psychologically more derogatory and personal to ONE wrestler based on the score.  

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