Jump to content
Badger Fan

What is Stalling Anyway?

Recommended Posts

Stalling Calls seem to vary widely from one referee to the next. I am not saying which referee is right and which is wrong although I have my opinions. There just does not seem to be much consensus on what is or isn't stalling.

Stalling or No Stalling
Wrestler who is ahead keeps a good stance but doesn't back up, doesn't duck his head, but does not try to score from the feet
Top wrestler sits on ankle for a long period of time 
One wrestler from neutral backs up to the edge of the mat on the feet but does not go out of bounds
One wrestler has a double underhook while the other ducks his head to prevent getting thrown
Top wrestler use the spiral ride for an extended period of time or the whole period
Top wrestler has a one on one or two on one parallel ride with no consistent turn attempts
Top wrestler has legs in, bottom wrestler ducks his head and keep elbows in to prevent turn
The top wrestler is manhandling the bottom wrestler who  can barely get up because of the tough ride

Current Stalling - But Should it Be?
Top wrestler grabs bottom wrestler leg or legs when you are on the mat for 5 seconds or more to attempt a turn or prevent reversal or escape. Maybe the first time should be a stalemate?

Top wrestler has a grapevine or double grapevine and locks around the head and arm for 5 seconds or more, which can eventually turn into a near fall situation

 


 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, unbiased said:

Stalling is what happens when anyone not wearing black and gold walks into CHA and they stall the entire time until the point they leave.

I hope this helps.

This is true. On the contrary, if you ask anyone not an Iowa fan, it is the guy wearing black and gold who is stalling. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Badger Fan said:

Stalling Calls seem to vary widely from one referee to the next. I am not saying which referee is right and which is wrong although I have my opinions. There just does not seem to be much consensus on what is or isn't stalling.

Stalling or No Stalling
Wrestler who is ahead keeps a good stance but doesn't back up, doesn't duck his head, but does not try to score from the feet
Top wrestler sits on ankle for a long period of time 
One wrestler from neutral backs up to the edge of the mat on the feet but does not go out of bounds
One wrestler has a double underhook while the other ducks his head to prevent getting thrown
Top wrestler use the spiral ride for an extended period of time or the whole period
Top wrestler has a one on one or two on one parallel ride with no consistent turn attempts
Top wrestler has legs in, bottom wrestler ducks his head and keep elbows in to prevent turn
The top wrestler is manhandling the bottom wrestler who  can barely get up because of the tough ride

Current Stalling - But Should it Be?
Top wrestler grabs bottom wrestler leg or legs when you are on the mat for 5 seconds or more to attempt a turn or prevent reversal or escape. Maybe the first time should be a stalemate?

Top wrestler has a grapevine or double grapevine and locks around the head and arm for 5 seconds or more, which can eventually turn into a near fall situation

 


 

 

This year more than ever I have seen top wrestlers hooking the ankle and extending themselves to keep the bottom man from being able to work up.  This to me IS STALLING. In this situation the top guy is not working to turn/score points...he is only looking to ride out.  Yes, they are somewhat off the side...however, again, there is no effort to turn/score.  

PSU is guilty....Iowa is guilty...and on and on and on.  

 

What is interesting is that the bottom man is often hit for stalling because he is not able to work up to a base/quad-pod/standup.  This is an area that needs serious looking at in my opinion.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stalling or No Stalling
Wrestler who is ahead keeps a good stance but doesn't back up, doesn't duck his head, but does not try to score from the feet - If he is he tying up and engaging the opponent, then (most likely) no.


Top wrestler sits on ankle for a long period of time - If he is just hanging on and making no attempt to break down the opponent, then yes. (After just this weekend, I feel like this should be a point of emphasis. The refs are too focused on whether it is a 5 count or not, they are ignoring the fact that it is plain old fashion stalling)


One wrestler from neutral backs up to the edge of the mat on the feet but does not go out of bounds - Probably not the first time, but if he makes a habitat of it, then definitely.


One wrestler has a double underhook while the other ducks his head to prevent getting thrown - No. But running backwards to try to get out of the tie will likely get you dinged.


Top wrestler use the spiral ride for an extended period of time or the whole period - He should be working towards improving his position on top, but the constant breaking down and basing up that happens in a spiral ride often makes it difficult to call stalling in this scenario.


Top wrestler has a one on one or two on one parallel ride with no consistent turn attempts - In high school they (at least use to) emphasize the top guy having to get off to the side instead of riding parallel. I would like to see that emphasis in college. Staying parallel without attempting to turn is stalling.


Top wrestler has legs in, bottom wrestler ducks his head and keep elbows in to prevent turn - If the bottom guy is clamming up, he is going to get dinged. I think they should call stalemates quicker when to guy throws in both legs, but hard to call stalling as it is easy for the top guy to at least pretend to be working, even though it is hard to turn a guy with both legs in.


The top wrestler is manhandling the bottom wrestler who  can barely get up because of the tough ride - No problem here. Just outclassed.

Current Stalling - But Should it Be?
Top wrestler grabs bottom wrestler leg or legs when you are on the mat for 5 seconds or more to attempt a turn or prevent reversal or escape. Maybe the first time should be a stalemate? - Yes. If you don't want to get hit, then let the leg go.

Top wrestler has a grapevine or double grapevine and locks around the head and arm for 5 seconds or more, which can eventually turn into a near fall situation - No real opinion on this situation.

Edited by Crotalus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, potentiallydangerous said:

I think if you're able to push the guy out of bounds you should get a point.

Problem with this is pushing is not wrestling. But something needs to be done about the definition of stalling. Every weekend I shake my head at stall calls. How many matches end where the guy who is winning may be the only guy called for stalling. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Bigboi Trained said:

Problem with this is pushing is not wrestling. But something needs to be done about the definition of stalling. Every weekend I shake my head at stall calls. How many matches end where the guy who is winning may be the only guy called for stalling. 

I agree with both to an extent.  But the guy on the edge is often there because he is refusing to wrestle in the center.  If someone is pushing into you, it should open up some of your offense anyway.I do like the current freestyle ruleset for this issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like how stalling is called now.  I competed in wrestling and judo and I always had to re-train myself for judo so I didn’t get DQed for stalling.  Especially during the rule changes in 2011.  

I will explain in detail using comparisons of the two sports: 

1.  Tie score stall calls:  In wrestling, the only time the ref would give a stall call/warning with a TIE SCORE is not returning a wrestler to the mat from referees position.  In judo, you can get his for stalling in the first 10 seconds.  

2.  Criteria vs Subjectivity:  in wrestling, hand fighting and tie ups are considered active wrestling.  In judo, holding a grip for more than 20 seconds without trying a move (waza) is an instant stall call.  In wrestling, leg shots are allowed, in judo, they aren’t (anymore).  Therefore, if someone in judo has a passive stance (grip with head down and hips back) for 6 seconds, instant stall call.  You CAN move back in judo, but you cannot back out of bounds.  However, with the gi, if you tried to push someone out of bounds, you would most likely get launched because it is nearly impossible to Slip out of a throw when someone is holding your clothes.  In judo, you don’t squat your hips to stop a one arm throw, you simply circle in front of the throw, if you circle the other way, you load yourself even more on their hips.  It took me a while to get used to that.

3. DQ (wrestling) and hansoku-maki (judo):  In wrestling your stalling progression is warning, point, point, 2 points, DQ.  Judo has an interesting one.  First let’s talk the pe-2017 progression of warning, warning, wazari, DQ.  For those who don’t know judo scoring, a wazari is a half point (think freestyle and non feet to back takedown).  An award of IPPON is like a 5 point throw or feet to back and it ENDS THE MATCH. Two separate wazari awards equals an IPPON (full point match over).  So, if both judoka have wazari scores, and someone gets dinged for stalling a 3rd time, they lose before they get to the 4th and DQ.  FAST FORWARD TO 2017.  Judo rules were changed.  Three stalling infractions gets you DQed.  No wazari awards, just DQ.  

Having explained the comparisons, I like the fact that stalling is more objective than it used to be.  I used to hate the obligatory stall warning against a wrestler winning by 2 with 10 seconds left and has been stalling since there was 30 seconds left.  Now we can get stall calls in the first period making it nearly impossible to sit on a one point lead with 30 seconds left.  

I wouldn’t like to see folk style adopt the judo progression (no points, 3 strikes and you’re out)because the scoring is so much different.  However, I would like FREESTYLE to get rid of the shot clock and cautions (1 and 2) in favor of 3 passivity calls and you are out.  Also, one 5 min period, and in the event of a tie, the person with the least passivity calls wins.  This last point scored is BS when it is 1-1 and the only points scored were shot clock violations.  Lastly, take away push outs and just count that to passivity.  Someone gets pushed out 3 times, they should lose.  

 

 

Edited by Cptafw164

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ncaa should adapt the stalling rules NJ just put this year, if one wrestler takes 3 straight dedicated shots with the other guy taking 0 that’s a stall call

back out or jump out of bounds it’s automatic stalling

if you ride parallel on top for 30 seconds without working one of sides - automatic stall 

I think NJ did a pretty good job in trying to take away some of the subjectivity from calls, so far I haven’t heard of any issues 

Edited by Antitroll2828

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Antitroll2828 said:

back out or jump out of bounds it’s automatic stalling

if you ride parallel on top for 30 seconds without working one of sides - automatic stall 

This ^^^

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Ncaa should adapt the stalling rules NJ just put this year, if one wrestler takes 3 straight dedicated shots with the other guy taking 0 that’s a stall call

back out or jump out of bounds it’s automatic stalling

if you ride parallel on top for 30 seconds without working one of sides - automatic stall 

I think NJ did a pretty good job in trying to take away some of the subjectivity from calls, so far I haven’t heard of any issues 

I was not aware of this!  The leg riding thing is necessary because refs didn’t call parallel riding (at least not with any consistency depending on the ref).  PLUS, with a leg in one side and locked with the other leg, the bottom wrestler would have their hip off the mat from the ride.  You can’t really get to a base that way.  
 

When I reffed, I used most of that criteria, but I can’t say the same of my referee brethren.  Making those rules are good because it makes referee decision making more consistent.  

Edited by Cptafw164

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

What is stalling anyway?

NCAA rules - http://www.ncaapublications.com/DownloadPublication.aspx?download=WR20.pdf

Section 7. Stalling

  1. Art. 1. Description. One or both wrestlers attempting to avoid wrestling action as an offensive or defensive strategy.
  2. Art. 2. Initiating Action. Action is to be maintained throughout the match by the wrestlers staying near the center of the mat and wrestling aggressively in all positions (top, bottom or neutral). Competitors charged with stalling shall be penalized according to the penalty sequence in Rule 5.7.3.
  3. Art. 3. Penalty Sequence.
    1. First violation = warning.
    2. Second violation = 1 match point to the opponent.
    3. Third violation = 1 match point to the opponent.
    4. Fourth violation = 2 match points to the opponent.
    5. Fifth violation = disqualification.
  4. Art. 4. Double Stalling. A “double stalling” violation is given when both wrestlers fail to initiate an offense.
  5. Art. 5. Neutral Position Stalling. When competing in the neutral position, neither wrestler may cause an unnecessary restart by forcing an out-of-bounds call by the referee. Each wrestler shall attempt to work toward the center of the mat and continue wrestling in an attempt to secure a takedown, regardless of the time or score of the match. When wrestling is stopped in the neutral position for going out of bounds, one of the following three calls shall be made (see Referee Signals in Appendix B for proper referee signals):
    1. Stalling by one or both wrestlers for leaving the wrestling area;
    2. Stalling for pushing or pulling the opponent out of bounds; or
    3. Wrestling action is taking place.
  6. Art. 6. Stalling by Backing Up. Continually backing away from the opponent without creating offensive action.
  7. Art. 7. Stalling by Wrestling on the Edge. Near the edge of the wrestling area, a wrestler shall not leave the wrestling area unless it is to sprawl from an opponent’s takedown attempt or when interlocked in wrestling.
  8. Art. 8. Stalling by Kicking Out of Bounds. A wrestler kicks out of a lower leg hold and this kick out requires the referee to make an out-of-bounds call.
  9. Art. 9. Stalling by Fleeing. Fleeing or attempting to flee the wrestling area as a means of avoiding being scored upon.
  10. Art. 10. Stalling by Pushing or Pulling — Offensive or Defensive Position.  Pushing or pulling the opponent out of bounds so as to force a restart.
  11. Art. 11. Stalling — Offensive and Defensive Position. Offensive and defensive wrestlers shall make an attempt to sustain active wrestling and remain in the competition circle.
  12. Art. 12. Stalling by Dropping Down to a Lower Leg. When the offensive wrestler positions himself with one or both hands below the buttocks of the defensive wrestler, the referee shall immediately start a verbal five-second count. Whenever possible, the referee also should include a visual indication of the count. The referee shall stop the count when the offensive wrestler improves his position, moves his hold back up above the buttocks of the defensive wrestler, releases the hold or when both wrestlers rise to the standing position. If the referee reaches the fifth count before the offensive wrestler improves his position, moves his hold back up above the buttocks or releases the hold, then the offensive wrestler shall be called for stalling.
  13. Art. 13. Stalling by Waist and Ankle Ride. If the offensive wrestler applies a hold with a hand or arm around the defensive wrestler’s torso while applying the other arm/hand below the buttocks, the referee shall immediately start a verbal five-second count. Whenever possible, the referee also should include a visual indication of the count. The referee shall stop the count when the offensive wrestler moves his arm/hand back up above the buttocks of the defensive wrestler, or releases the hold. If the referee reaches the fifth count before the offensive wrestler moves his arm/hand back up above the buttocks of the defensive wrestler, or releases the hold, then the offensive wrestler shall be called for stalling.
  14. Art. 14. Stalling by Side Headlock. When an offensive wrestler applies a side headlock or cross body headlock to the defensive wrestler, the referee shall immediately start a verbal five-second count. Whenever possible, the referee also should include a visual indication of the count. If the offensive wrestler does not release the hold or attempt to put his opponent in a near-fall situation (defined as on their back or in a near-fall criterion) before the referee reaches his fifth count, the offensive wrestler shall be called for stalling.
  15. Art. 15. On-the-Mat Stalling Situations. Offensive and defensive stalling situations also include:
    1. The offensive wrestler does not aggressively attempt to break down the opponent.
    2. The defensive wrestler not initiating action to escape or reverse the opponent.
    3. An offensive wrestler not making an effort to return the defensive wrestler to the mat is considered stalling. In all rear-standing situations, it is the offensive wrestler's responsibility to make an effort to return the defensive wrestler to the mat.
  16. Art. 16. Stalling by Delaying Match. Delaying the match, such as straggling back from out of bounds, unnecessarily changing or adjusting equipment, or any match delays directly related to shoes or shoelaces, shall be penalized as stalling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Stalling Calls seem to vary widely from one referee to the next. I am not saying which referee is right and which is wrong although I have my opinions. There just does not seem to be much consensus on what is or isn't stalling.


Stalling or No Stalling

  • YES | Wrestler who is ahead keeps a good stance but doesn't back up, doesn't duck his head, but does not try to score from the feet
  • YES | Top wrestler sits on ankle for a long period of time [presume not working for pin]
  • YES | One wrestler from neutral backs up to the edge of the mat on the feet but does not go out of bounds
  • STALEMATE | One wrestler has a double underhook while the other ducks his head to prevent getting thrown
    • Stalemate. When the wrestlers are interlocked in a position other than a pinning situation in which neither wrestler is improving position, the referee may stop the match as soon as possible; wrestling will be resumed as for out of bounds
  • YES | Top wrestler use the spiral ride for an extended period of time or the whole period [presume not working for pin]
  • YES | Top wrestler has a one on one or two on one parallel ride with no consistent turn attempts
  • YES | Top wrestler has legs in, bottom wrestler ducks his head and keep elbows in to prevent turn
  • Need more info | The top wrestler is manhandling the bottom wrestler who can barely get up because of the tough ride


Current Stalling - But Should it Be?

  • YES | Top wrestler grabs bottom wrestler leg or legs when you are on the mat for 5 seconds or more to attempt a turn or prevent reversal or escape. Maybe the first time should be a stalemate?
  • Need more info | Top wrestler has a grapevine or double grapevine and locks around the head and arm for 5 seconds or more, which can eventually turn into a near fall situation
    • People use the grapevine term to mean different leg positions.  Will you share a photo or video that shows the exact position?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Cptafw164 said:

Does it have to be a “shot?”  What if it is a throw by attempt, front headlock and attempting a go behind (chase the sock) or throw/foot sweep/inside trip attempt?

I should’ve phrased it better I believe it’s 3 dedicated offensive attempts 

Edited by Antitroll2828

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

I should’ve phrased it better I believe it’s 3 dedicated offensive attempts 

Makes more sense.  Is this actually in the rules?  Because rules are national.  Unless you are talking about state interpretation pamphlets.  (That is where the NY extra weight class is referenced...used to be a green pamphlet)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Cptafw164 said:

Makes more sense.  Is this actually in the rules?  Because rules are national.  Unless you are talking about state interpretation pamphlets.  (That is where the NY extra weight class is referenced...used to be a green pamphlet)

I was told by a head coach that these are new rules the NJ rules committee put into affect this year

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...