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“Amateur” moves: headlocks/sags and mixers

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The last 5 years, penn state made “amateur moves” a staple.  I call them amateur because my high school coach in the 90s told me “the only people who do headlocks and lat drops are beginner wrestlers.”  As if those moves are hard to do against good wrestlers.

I don’t disagree...when they are forced.  But when your opponent “gives” them to you, they are pretty easy to hit.  Especially when you are an exceptional wrestler yourself. 
Nolf:  lefty headlock

Marky: mixer

Nickal:  high fliers, gator bacon, cradles out of nowhere, overhooks.

rasheed:Cross face cradles

 

I keep remembering the Caldwell Metcalf NCAA finals match when Caldwell hit a headlock on metcalf in the first 20 seconds.  Blatnik said, “that shows no respect.”  
 

I posted this because the near side cradle got me thinking on a tangent.  

If your opponent doesn’t expect it because it is amateur...then it has a higher probability of working.  

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When I coached I taught the theory that the 4 most important takedowns in wrestling are a single leg, double leg, hi-crotch and a front headlock.  Everything else was  "extra tools" in the toolbox that you would pull out if it was absolutely there.  Some of those "extras" we worked on a little, more for defense/prevention of than to actually hit the technique.....a headlock is my best example.....in maybe 40 years of coaching, I can only remember one kid ever using a lateral drop (it was my first year with the program and I only stayed there one year).  The kid won the state title his junior year with the lateral drop.....I kept warning him that he needed to go to other takedowns....his senior year he lost in the semi's and had to come back to take 3rd.....the guy that beat him stayed out of the over/under, and went on to win the state meet.  Nearside cradle got menitoned...to me the nearside cradle is a basic pinning combination, a part of the cradle series....some kids are good with cradles, some are good with armbars, others spiral ride/1/2 nelson.  As a sidenote....we worked on pummeling, and from the over and under we worked on footsweeps, step around bodylocks, Metzgers and more.  All those techniques done right, are safe and high percentage.  

Edited by fadzaev2

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36 minutes ago, fadzaev2 said:

When I coached I taught the theory that the 4 most important takedowns in wrestling are a single leg, double leg, hi-crotch and a front headlock.  Everything else was  "extra tools" in the toolbox that you would pull out if it was absolutely there.  Some of those "extras" we worked on a little, more for defense/prevention of than to actually hit the technique.....a headlock is my best example.....in maybe 40 years of coaching, I can only remember one kid ever using a lateral drop (it was my first year at the program I walked into for one year).  The kid won the state title his junior year with the lateral drop.....I kept warning him that he needed to go to other takedowns....his senior year he lost in the semi's and had to come back to take 3rd.....the guy that beat him stayed out of the over/under, and went on to win the state meet.  Nearside cradle got menitoned...to me the nearside cradle is a basic pinning combination, a part of the cradle series....some kids are good with cradles, some are good with armbars, others spiral ride/1/2 nelson.  As a sidenote....we worked on pummeling, and from the over and under we worked on footsweeps, step around bodylocks, Metzgers and more.  All those techniques done right, are safe and high percentage.  

Lateral drops are very, very common in PA high school wrestling.  Where did you coach that you only saw 1 ever?

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The cowcatcher. It was my go-to move prior to high school, and pinned my first HS opponent using it. I was encouraged in high school to move away from it and to the more standard front headlock series. I'm still not really sure why. Sure the better kids are going to be able to defend it but it is a low risk move and I was strong enough I could have muscled over a lot of guys if I had kept it in my arsenal.

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39 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

The cowcatcher. It was my go-to move prior to high school, and pinned my first HS opponent using it. I was encouraged in high school to move away from it and to the more standard front headlock series. I'm still not really sure why. Sure the better kids are going to be able to defend it but it is a low risk move and I was strong enough I could have muscled over a lot of guys if I had kept it in my arsenal.

That was Joe Colon's go to, right? Remember seeing him catch a guy in Midlands with it.

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When I was a freshman in high school,"back in the day" a lot of guys,including me,used the "Peterson". 

You had to be careful,since if a guy knew it was coming,you could end up on your back.

By the time I was a sophomore,nobody on our team used it.

During  a couple of matches in college,it "looked like it was there".

Apparently,nobody expected a college wrestler to try it.

I did,twice,and got 2 pins.

Then guys found out I had used it and "wised up".

 

 

 

Edited by rpbobcat

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3 hours ago, unbiased said:

There are no amateur moves. 

Agreed. Perhaps the question some of the wrestling snobs here should be asking is why they teach those "amateur moves" to beginning wrestlers if they are ineffective? Is a sitout an "amateur" move? How about a reversal off the sitout when you catch the leg, is that an "amateur" move? Is a "standup" an amateur move? Fireman's carry (which, btw, I hardly ever see in D1 anymore, and it dumps the guy ONTO HIS ****ING BACK)?  I used to LOVE the Fireman's Carry, especially when I was giving up a strength advantage at my weight class (sophomore year in HS). Huge equalizer if you are quick/balanced. Especially good against stocky/musclebound dudes. Sure, watching  a guy doing the basic fundamentals (cough "Dake" cough) isn't exciting compared to watching a guy scoring at will with flashy moves (cough "Taylor" cough), but "amateur" moves are used for a reason.....they are highly effective.

At fadzaev: I can imagine you being a great coach. You teach your guys the basics and to be opportunative, and reading your comments I was surprised to see a front headlock position. I was never taught that by any of my coaches, I worked off a collar tie. Or is this another issue of semantics, same position by a different name? It's a great position to work on fireman's carries from, which was a staple of my game. Would you say the fireman's is synonymous with a hi-crotch?

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3 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

I used to LOVE the Fireman's Carry, especially when I was giving up a strength advantage at my weight class

This was a move I did from the time I was 4 to 8th grade. I had a coach get me to stop doing it, and move to a more high crotch based attack. I wonder what he would think watching the Worlds now as it has become very prevalent again. 

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1 minute ago, russelscout said:

Before Burroughs came a long, I thought the double leg was going extinct. 

And for good reason! I hated the double leg, but of course if I could get to the other leg while working on my single, all the better. Of the standard shots my favorite was probably the outside single. Could get there easily from a collar tie and not much risk of giving up two on an easy go around. Plus, doubles give the opponent a good chance to grind your face to dust with their forearm, if they know what they are doing.  I hated double legs.

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3 minutes ago, russelscout said:

This was a move I did from the time I was 4 to 8th grade. I had a coach get me to stop doing it, and move to a more high crotch based attack. I wonder what he would think watching the Worlds now as it has become very prevalent again. 

Wrestling imitating the fashion world? Stuff that was popular coming back? LOL!

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16 minutes ago, rpbobcat said:

When I was a freshman in high school,"back in the day" a lot of guys,including me,used the "Peterson". 

You had to be careful,since if a guy knew it was coming,you could end up on your back.

By the time I was a sophomore,nobody on our team used it.

During  a couple of matches in college,it "looked like it was there".

Apparently,nobody expected a college wrestler to try it.

I did,twice,and got 2 pins.

Then guys found out I had used it and "wised up".

 

 

 

I remember when I learned the Granby roll. I thought it was squirrelly as hell, lol, and there was a great chance to get stuck if you were caught.

I remember the "Peterson". In name only, not the actual move which I can't remember at all. 

Edited by TobusRex

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3 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

And for good reason! I hated the double leg, but of course if I could get to the other leg while working on my single, all the better. Of the standard shots my favorite was probably the outside single. Could get there easily from a collar tie and not much risk of giving up two on an easy go around. Plus, doubles give the opponent a good chance to grind your face to dust with their forearm, if they know what they are doing.  I hated double legs.

Well singles are still the #1 attack in the world across all levels. There are stats to back that up somewhere out there. I was never explosive enough to double leg.

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2 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Well singles are still the #1 attack in the world across all levels. There are stats to back that up somewhere out there. I was never explosive enough to double leg.

Me neither. Got to be quick/strong to pull it off consistently, quicker than I was.

Edited by TobusRex

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2 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

That's the match I was thinking of :D Was in the finals I think...maybe semifinals

I think the finals. It was quick and it was a beat down. I remember thinking I hope Ramos doesn't have to wrestle him at nationals. Luckily he didn't as Colon lost to Graff in the semis. 

Edited by russelscout

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25 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Before Burroughs came a long, I thought the double leg was going extinct. 

Our club team and middle school only teach singles and high crotch. Doubles only taught when switching off from Hi-C.

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After a while people get good at defending a move and it starts to go away.  If it has been gone long enough, people forget how to defend it well.  Then the move may work again. Moves like a single leg have so many variations that it can never be completely defended.

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