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“Amateur” moves: headlocks/sags and mixers

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2 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

Our club team and middle school only teach singles and high crotch. Doubles only taught when switching off from Hi-C.

Do you think that's a good thing? I think the problem with doubles is how they are taught. Stopping and pivoting gives the other guy time to throw his hips into you. Burroughs just drives through and I think that's the best way to teach it. The thing about a hi-c to a double is that you already have that angle and can avoid the hips.

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I've often thought that a wrestler who became very skilled at the Russian 2on1 tie and the countless options from it could do well at high-level college wrestling. 

I think many coaches think it is easy to shut down (and it is, against unskilled users who really don't master the technique) and discourage it's use. I also think most coaches do not know much about this technique and associated options, and thus, don't include it in their systems.

I think the Russian options would be a huge add to Mason Parris's arsenal. He's quick enough to do so many moves off of counters to the Russian, and he wouldn't have to put himself under the big opponents as much as he does. 

Various Russin Tie series work well at the World-Class level and there's no reason why it couldn't work in college wrestling.

 

Edited by Old Corps

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7 minutes ago, Old Corps said:

I've often thought that a wrestler who became very skilled at the Russian 2on1 tie and the countless options from it could do well at high-level college wrestling. 

I think many coaches think it is easy to shut down (and it is, against unskilled users who really don't master the technique) and discourage it's use. I also think most coaches do not know much about this technique and associated options, and thus, don't include it in their systems.

I've seen Spencer Lee work the Russian tie quiet a bit. Lots of scoring options and simultaneously limits the options for the opponent.

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3 hours ago, Mokoma said:

Lateral drops are very, very common in PA high school wrestling.  Where did you coach that you only saw 1 ever?

I'm talking about on my teams, and I coached junior high school, high school and college.

 

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5 hours ago, unbiased said:

There are no amateur moves. 

Agreed. Hitting a flash move isn’t amateur, it’s being versatile. In this day and age wrestlers are routinely scouted out and opponents prepare against conventional, expected attacks and positions. “Amateur” moves punished opponents for not being more fluid.

The OP’s example of Metcalf getting headlocked by Caldwell is a good one - he was also spladled by him in an earlier match. Actually Iowa guys are so fundamentally solid in all the basic positions and attacks that they seem to become vulnerable to unexpected techniques like spladles (Metcalf, Gilman, Ramos, Stoll). 

On the other hand you have guys like Jason Nolf who made his entire late college career throwing the most unexpected “amateur” moves at you, like the Winn Dixie, then incorporating something totally different when opponents learn to expect it. It seems more like versatility and fluidity than “amateur”.

I’m also a big proponent of teaching throws, which may seem “amateur” in the US but is just part of a wrestler’s offensive repertoire internationally. 

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1 hour ago, Old Corps said:

I've often thought that a wrestler who became very skilled at the Russian 2on1 tie and the countless options from it could do well at high-level college wrestling. 

I think many coaches think it is easy to shut down (and it is, against unskilled users who really don't master the technique) and discourage it's use. I also think most coaches do not know much about this technique and associated options, and thus, don't include it in their systems.

I think the Russian options would be a huge add to Mason Parris's arsenal. He's quick enough to do so many moves off of counters to the Russian, and he wouldn't have to put himself under the big opponents as much as he does. 

Various Russin Tie series work well at the World-Class level and there's no reason why it couldn't work in college wrestling.

 

There have been almost no scores from this 2 on 1 tie in the last two World Championships---from any nation.

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4 hours ago, Mokoma said:

What area did you coach in was my question?

I prefer to remain anonymous, location included.  I'll just say it's a state that has top college recruits year in and year out, and has major college wrestling programs as well.

 

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59 minutes ago, Old Corps said:

Which means?

It is not used at the world level.  At least not effectively. 

Probably the higher up you go, the less effective.

Even the Russians are rarely scoring from "the Russian" tie.

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1 minute ago, AHamilton said:

It is not used at the world level.  At least not effectively. 

Probably the higher up you go, the less effective.

Even the Russians are rarely scoring from "the Russian" tie.

This is exactly what has been said about World level wrestling in the past about headlocks, fireman’s carries, shrugs/go-behinds, duck-unders, barrel rolls, and most notably Pre-Smith...low-singles and Pre-Burroughs...blast doubles.

All of these techniques work at the World level, and all have been used at times. 

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2 minutes ago, Old Corps said:

This is exactly what has been said about World level wrestling in the past about headlocks, fireman’s carries, shrugs/go-behinds, duck-unders, barrel rolls, and most notably Pre-Smith...low-singles and Pre-Burroughs...blast doubles.

All of these techniques work at the World level, and all have been used at times. 

It is not one move.  It is a control tie and series.  Control ties just are not working anymore.  People try them, but loose ties and open have scored more.

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Remember awhile back some made fun of me for asking why more don't use a fireman's carry for takedowns.

Too simple - won't work - and similar comments.

A guy named Sadulaev sure does well with it.

Like any other technique, simple or complex, it you set it up and hit it well you have it working for you.

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