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Cptafw164

“Amateur” moves: headlocks/sags and mixers

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There's a lot to be said on what people consider junk moves and what people consider moves that are hit when the opportunity presents itself.  Talking with John Smith one time, he made realize that junk moves are really go to moves for some and what some consider junk.  He talked about two wrestlers that had a lot of success for him and how when they first came into the Cowboy Wrestling Room, he was not impressed at all.  One was a huge recruit and is now a assistant for him, Zack Esposito and the other was Johnny Thompson.  John told me that after coaching those two, that he will never tell a wrestler that they cannot do  a move or that it is crap wrestling and it won't work.  Of course he meant that it worked for those guys and not a lot of others, but it rang true and it was a lesson that I will never forget.  If you pull up Johnny Thompson's Highlight video it is awesome, truly one of the toughest guys that I ever had the opportunity to scrap with.  Johnny talked about how he was able to hit his snake on almost anyone and then he developed one of the best double legs off of that.  Guys were terrified to get caught in the snake and it would sit up his beautiful double because they would square up so hard keep their head up for fear of getting tossed to their back.  

One of story that I would like to share about this topic is about a former great Nebraska High School Coach.  Tom McCann coached at Kearney High School and had a top level HS team.  He talked one time about coaching kids that were knew to wrestling how to pin.  He would show big moves that most consider junk and by doing this, he said he should kids how to use leverage, hips, strength, and they had fun by learning how to pin.  After they developed this, the kids were hooked and they wanted to learn more.  They wanted to become a good or great wrestler like other kids on his team.  He talked about showing kids how to hit High Flyers, Snakes, Twisters, and other moves that people consider junk moves and I will never forget the first time I went to the Nebraska HS State Tournament and I heard the roar of the Kearney fans and I looked over and saw a kid that had come into the tournament with barely a 500 record just pin his way into the semi-finals.  It was another lesson that has stuck with me in my own coaching career and I do think there are always room for good wrestlers to learn what some consider junk moves.   

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48 minutes ago, WillieBoy said:

Remember awhile back some made fun of me for asking why more don't use a fireman's carry for takedowns.

Too simple - won't work - and similar comments.

A guy named Sadulaev sure does well with it.

Like any other technique, simple or complex, it you set it up and hit it well you have it working for you.

Fireman's is great

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20 hours ago, Cptafw164 said:

The last 5 years, penn state made “amateur moves” a staple.  I call them amateur because my high school coach in the 90s told me “the only people who do headlocks and lat drops are beginner wrestlers.”  As if those moves are hard to do against good wrestlers.

I don’t disagree...when they are forced.  But when your opponent “gives” them to you, they are pretty easy to hit.  Especially when you are an exceptional wrestler yourself. 
Nolf:  lefty headlock

Marky: mixer

Nickal:  high fliers, gator bacon, cradles out of nowhere, overhooks.

rasheed:Cross face cradles

 

I keep remembering the Caldwell Metcalf NCAA finals match when Caldwell hit a headlock on metcalf in the first 20 seconds.  Blatnik said, “that shows no respect.”  
 

I posted this because the near side cradle got me thinking on a tangent.  

If your opponent doesn’t expect it because it is amateur...then it has a higher probability of working.  

"Amateurs Moves" only if you do it on amateurs. It's called 'FUNK' if you can hit top guys on it. The sport needs more FUNK.  That is no different than guys taking one move or position all the way to the AA Podium. Many notable guys who can't ride or turn to save a life, or guys couldn't stop a take-down but choose top and can cradle or tilt everyone. 

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2 hours ago, Meatey said:

There's a lot to be said on what people consider junk moves and what people consider moves that are hit when the opportunity presents itself.  Talking with John Smith one time, he made realize that junk moves are really go to moves for some and what some consider junk.  He talked about two wrestlers that had a lot of success for him and how when they first came into the Cowboy Wrestling Room, he was not impressed at all.  One was a huge recruit and is now a assistant for him, Zack Esposito and the other was Johnny Thompson.  John told me that after coaching those two, that he will never tell a wrestler that they cannot do  a move or that it is crap wrestling and it won't work.  Of course he meant that it worked for those guys and not a lot of others, but it rang true and it was a lesson that I will never forget.  If you pull up Johnny Thompson's Highlight video it is awesome, truly one of the toughest guys that I ever had the opportunity to scrap with.  Johnny talked about how he was able to hit his snake on almost anyone and then he developed one of the best double legs off of that.  Guys were terrified to get caught in the snake and it would sit up his beautiful double because they would square up so hard keep their head up for fear of getting tossed to their back.  

One of story that I would like to share about this topic is about a former great Nebraska High School Coach.  Tom McCann coached at Kearney High School and had a top level HS team.  He talked one time about coaching kids that were knew to wrestling how to pin.  He would show big moves that most consider junk and by doing this, he said he should kids how to use leverage, hips, strength, and they had fun by learning how to pin.  After they developed this, the kids were hooked and they wanted to learn more.  They wanted to become a good or great wrestler like other kids on his team.  He talked about showing kids how to hit High Flyers, Snakes, Twisters, and other moves that people consider junk moves and I will never forget the first time I went to the Nebraska HS State Tournament and I heard the roar of the Kearney fans and I looked over and saw a kid that had come into the tournament with barely a 500 record just pin his way into the semi-finals.  It was another lesson that has stuck with me in my own coaching career and I do think there are always room for good wrestlers to learn what some consider junk moves.   

how do you know coach McCann?

he is a great guy!

are you still in nebraska?

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23 hours ago, Cptafw164 said:

The last 5 years, penn state made “amateur moves” a staple.  I call them amateur because my high school coach in the 90s told me “the only people who do headlocks and lat drops are beginner wrestlers.”  As if those moves are hard to do against good wrestlers.

I don’t disagree...when they are forced.  But when your opponent “gives” them to you, they are pretty easy to hit.  Especially when you are an exceptional wrestler yourself. 
Nolf:  lefty headlock

Marky: mixer

Nickal:  high fliers, gator bacon, cradles out of nowhere, overhooks.

rasheed:Cross face cradles

 

I keep remembering the Caldwell Metcalf NCAA finals match when Caldwell hit a headlock on metcalf in the first 20 seconds.  Blatnik said, “that shows no respect.”  
 

I posted this because the near side cradle got me thinking on a tangent.  

If your opponent doesn’t expect it because it is amateur...then it has a higher probability of working.  

this is a stupid topic because you are confusing amateur with high risk.

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10 hours ago, ChiefStormSky said:

Isn't he the guy that showed the "twister" to all of those York kids?  Ha!  Hope all is well in your world........ Montana is treating me very well.

lol... we have tornados once in awhile... 

i knew he was tough... but wrangling one of those is awesome

kids are in college

having fun!

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15 hours ago, AHamilton said:

It is not used at the world level.  At least not effectively. 

Probably the higher up you go, the less effective.

Even the Russians are rarely scoring from "the Russian" tie.

This might be the exception that proves your point, but Tsargush was dangerous from this position. Burroughs basically tried to bail out when he locked it up. (BTW I hate me some Tsargush)

@ 1:20, 6:45, 7:45, 8:15 here: 

 

@ 3:40 and other places here: 

@ :57, 11:17 here: 

 @ 3:15 here: 

 

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36 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

 

This might be the exception that proves your point, but Tsargush was dangerous from this position. Burroughs basically tried to bail out when he locked it up. (BTW I hate me some Tsargush)

@ 1:20, 6:45, 7:45, 8:15 here: 

 

@ 3:40 and other places here: 

@ :57, 11:17 here: 

 @ 3:15 here: 

 

Good stuff

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22 hours ago, AHamilton said:

There have been almost no scores from this 2 on 1 tie in the last two World Championships---from any nation.

There are guys that still like that position.  Chamizo and Sidakov both do, just to name a couple.  I do agree though, it's much less common, and I can't think of a single elite guy who's bread and butter is the 2 on 1.  

You see way more guys working from an underhook, or from space. 

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1 hour ago, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

There are guys that still like that position.  Chamizo and Sidakov both do, just to name a couple.  I do agree though, it's much less common, and I can't think of a single elite guy who's bread and butter is the 2 on 1.  

You see way more guys working from an underhook, or from space. 

And the actual number of offensive scores from control ties are non-existent. They seem to be more commonly used to score pushouts.

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21 hours ago, AHamilton said:

It is not used at the world level.  At least not effectively. 

Probably the higher up you go, the less effective.

Even the Russians are rarely scoring from "the Russian" tie.

That's because they don't know how to do it correctly!

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1 hour ago, AHamilton said:

And the actual number of offensive scores from control ties are non-existent. They seem to be more commonly used to score pushouts.

Alright, I was curious about this so spent 15 minutes speed watching the 10 world championship matches from 2019 and logging how 2 and 4 point scores were earned.

Here are the results, most to least common:

Shot from Space 8
Gut Wrench 8
Shot from Underhook 3
Front Headlock 2
Snatch Single 2
Crotch Lock 2
2 on 1 1
Shot from Inside Tie 1
Throw By 1
Chest Wrap 1
Dresser Dump 1
Dump 1
Go Behind 1
Step Over 1

For shots from space, I included leg attacks where the setup was essentially a quick club or tap and go.  In terms of the actual leg attacks that scored, it's a pretty even mix between head inside and head outside singles, with a couple of double legs sprinkled in.  

The only guy to score from a 2-on-1 was Akgul... not a Russian. 

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3 hours ago, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

Alright, I was curious about this so spent 15 minutes speed watching the 10 world championship matches from 2019 and logging how 2 and 4 point scores were earned.

Here are the results, most to least common:

Shot from Space 8
Gut Wrench 8
Shot from Underhook 3
Front Headlock 2
Snatch Single 2
Crotch Lock 2
2 on 1 1
Shot from Inside Tie 1
Throw By 1
Chest Wrap 1
Dresser Dump 1
Dump 1
Go Behind 1
Step Over 1

For shots from space, I included leg attacks where the setup was essentially a quick club or tap and go.  In terms of the actual leg attacks that scored, it's a pretty even mix between head inside and head outside singles, with a couple of double legs sprinkled in.  

The only guy to score from a 2-on-1 was Akgul... not a Russian. 

Askren has done the last two world championships and the US Open from quarterfinals on and all medal matches.  He has done a very comprehensive study.  The graphics may be available on Rudis social media and he takes a fairly deep dive into it on probably 4+ hours of podcasts over the last year.  Hundreds of matches analyzed.

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13 hours ago, AHamilton said:

Askren has done the last two world championships and the US Open from quarterfinals on and all medal matches.  He has done a very comprehensive study.  The graphics may be available on Rudis social media and he takes a fairly deep dive into it on probably 4+ hours of podcasts over the last year.  Hundreds of matches analyzed.

Good stuff.  I will look around for it. 

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22 hours ago, AHamilton said:

And the actual number of offensive scores from control ties are non-existent. They seem to be more commonly used to score pushouts.

This doesnt mean they arent used and arent effective.  How many offensive scores are generated from head positioning?

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6 minutes ago, olddirty said:

This doesnt mean they arent used and arent effective.  How many offensive scores are generated from head positioning?

Have not been effective for scoring 2 points... but have played well for pushouts (especially the Iranians with underhooks without head position.) Great for slowing pace down too and securing a lead late in the match.  But currently are not being used to directly score a lot of technical points in world freestyle.

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On a side note.  For one college practice I tried to only do moves named after people/places or I thought were named after people/places.  I had to add places because I didn’t know what to do on bottom other than a Peterson...so I went granby.  And I liked the Russian tie.  I also used “Russian front headlock” because my old club coach (Rick dellagatta) called the front headlock that.  
 

needless to say, I couldn’t hit Barsegars and Metzgers worth a crap, but I was able to get pretty good at getting a Merkle from neutral just in that practice.  Too bad that rule wasn’t in effect in 98-03.  
 

NOTE:  It was a wager, so I picked the Russian front headlock over the John Smith Single upon setting the rules.  

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On 2/11/2020 at 8:05 PM, hammerlockthree said:

this is a stupid topic because you are confusing amateur with high risk.

It was halfway tongue in cheek on my long post.  For a long time, those moves were seldom done unless you needed big points.  They were not very successful the longer the match went.  They just figured out the best time to do them was early when least expected and you had the strength to advance the position necessary to complete the move.  HOWEVER, anyone who is tired and standing straight up (not in stance) is asking to be thrown.  As long as you aren’t as tired as them, your risk is much lower doing one of those moves with an upright opponent.

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14 minutes ago, Cptafw164 said:

On a side note.  For one college practice I tried to only do moves named after people/places or I thought were named after people/places.  I had to add places because I didn’t know what to do on bottom other than a Peterson...so I went granby.  And I liked the Russian tie.  I also used “Russian front headlock” because my old club coach (Rick dellagatta) called the front headlock that.  
 

needless to say, I couldn’t hit Barsegars and Metzgers worth a crap, but I was able to get pretty good at getting a Merkle from neutral just in that practice.  Too bad that rule wasn’t in effect in 98-03.  
 

NOTE:  It was a wager, so I picked the Russian front headlock over the John Smith Single upon setting the rules.  

Didn't Ricky Dellagatta pin Sergei Belaglazov with a headlock or something in a dual meet?

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3 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

Didn't Ricky Dellagatta pin Sergei Belaglazov with a headlock or something in a dual meet?

Wow, not many people know about that.  It was a USA v Russia dual in Atlantic City before the World Cup. Coach D told me he was told to “go out there and not get pinned.”  You should YouTube Dellagatta.  21-11 match with randy Lewis at the trials Ricky won with a bum knee.  Ricky v bohay at the NCWA classic and Ricky v Lewis at midlands.  
 

Coach Dellagatta used to say he wrestled with “controlled funk”

he invented funk in the late 70s early 80s.  Randy said Ricky was the only guy to get the best of him so often.  At least 3 times and I think he pinned him twice.  
 

This calls for a RANDY LEWIS story....

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On 2/11/2020 at 7:50 AM, Gasman1 said:

The Walsh brothers (Taylor - Indiana, Chad - Rider) were always good for an unauthorized headlock or a JV reach back from bottom position.  Somehow they seemed to make it work.

The JV reachback can be disguised as an osoto gari for those who know what they are doing:  Jason Morris

Now I have to say the JV reachback was something wrestling coaches nagged is judo guys for doing...until we got a pin or reversal.  Then they would tell me to stop wrestling like an amateur.  “But coach, if they don’t expect it because it’s ‘amateur’ wouldn’t that give me an advantage since it is a position I am strong in?”  Then they just turned red.

Edited by Cptafw164

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