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Nickal’s weight

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1 hour ago, Eagle26 said:

Message boards are for speculation and I don’t think there is anything with trying to draw your own conclusions based on evidence. More evidence will surface shortly, but from what we have seen, he doesn’t seem interested in losing weight or taking a serious run at the Olympics 

I understand that. But there’s a big difference in speculating out loud, and posting in a tone of authority on what someone is thinking, and making judgements on them based on what you think they are thinking. And I’m not saying your post was doing that. My point was it gets a little out of hand and sometimes people need to be reminded that...of course none of us know what is going on inside his head. And just like it’s okay to speculate, it’s just as okay to call it out when it does get out of hand. 

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

I understand that. But there’s a big difference in speculating out loud, and posting in a tone of authority on what someone is thinking, and making judgements on them based on what you think they are thinking. And I’m not saying your post was doing that. My point was it gets a little out of hand and sometimes people need to be reminded that...of course none of us know what is going on inside his head. And just like it’s okay to speculate, it’s just as okay to call it out when it does get out of hand. 

Ladies and gentlemen, he doesn't know any wrestling but we have our manners police.

Edited by hammerlockthree

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So I guess the big question I have is, why are some getting so work up about it, and seemingly taking it so personally?  IF, and I'm just speculating here, but if his mindset is not at all going to worry about weight class, but focus strictly on the training and technique and give it my best go, let the chips fall where they may......what is wrong with that?  How is that a waste of time or money or any of the other emotions I've seen on here about it?  We are talking about someone who A) know he has a very big challenge to overcome regardless of which weight class he is going to go (I mean he has mat time with DT, JC, and KS....he probably knows where he stands) and 2) has a solid history of moving up a weight and being successful. So I guess I just don't understand the outcry of someone who has been nothing but successful pursuing their path on their terms.  I guess its that "if I don't agree with it I gotta talk about how stupid it is, or a waste of our time and money, or question his sincerity in what he wants"  And please don't give me that I pay USA Wrestling money so these athletes need to be doing what I think they should be doing routine.  No....they don't.

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35 minutes ago, Lurker said:

So I guess the big question I have is, why are some getting so work up about it, and seemingly taking it so personally?  IF, and I'm just speculating here, but if his mindset is not at all going to worry about weight class, but focus strictly on the training and technique and give it my best go, let the chips fall where they may......what is wrong with that?  How is that a waste of time or money or any of the other emotions I've seen on here about it?  We are talking about someone who A) know he has a very big challenge to overcome regardless of which weight class he is going to go (I mean he has mat time with DT, JC, and KS....he probably knows where he stands) and 2) has a solid history of moving up a weight and being successful. So I guess I just don't understand the outcry of someone who has been nothing but successful pursuing their path on their terms.  I guess its that "if I don't agree with it I gotta talk about how stupid it is, or a waste of our time and money, or question his sincerity in what he wants"  And please don't give me that I pay USA Wrestling money so these athletes need to be doing what I think they should be doing routine.  No....they don't.

Well, it's an internet forum and we don't have anything else interesting to complain about. The "dont' worry about cutting weight and just train" makes sense for someone like J'den who is caught in the middle. But Bo is so damn close to 86 and doesn't seem to be trying to fill out the weight (his weigh-in last year was comfortably below his college senior weight limit), it seems impossible that he will be competitive giving up 20 lbs against the best in the world, which is very different than giving up 5 lbs in colleges. I think we'd all like to see him give it a real go, and that doesn't seem possible at 97.

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14 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

Well, it's an internet forum and we don't have anything else interesting to complain about. The "dont' worry about cutting weight and just train" makes sense for someone like J'den who is caught in the middle. But Bo is so damn close to 86 and doesn't seem to be trying to fill out the weight (his weigh-in last year was comfortably below his college senior weight limit), it seems impossible that he will be competitive giving up 20 lbs against the best in the world, which is very different than giving up 5 lbs in colleges. I think we'd all like to see him give it a real go, and that doesn't seem possible at 97.

Like I said I get wondering and talking.....its the ones coming across as emotional and mad and wasting time and money and acting like what they want is what he needs to be doing.  That's what I'm questioning.

Edited by Lurker

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10 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Like I said I get wondering and talking.....its the ones coming across as emotional and mad and wasting time and money and acting like what they want is what he needs to be doing.  That's what I'm questioning.

That's fair.

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If he feels so strongly about Taylor , wrestle 86 and default in finals. We will have a strong back up.

Better then a number 3 alternate at 97.

I'm big  fan of Nickal. But I don't want him as are 97 representative undersized out horsed at Olympics.

 

Edited by cangemi

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1 hour ago, cangemi said:

If he feels so strongly about Taylor , wrestle 86 and default in finals. We will have a strong back up.

Better then a number 3 alternate at 97.

I'm big  fan of Nickal. But I don't want him as are 97 representative undersized out horsed at Olympics.

 

This is a great call here.  Somebody call Nickal and let him know he can be number 2.

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On Bo wrestling Taylor - remember when Cael made his comeback after the bet with his team? He went up a weight rather than ace out Varner for the 2011 World Championships. Still took 5th up a weight. If he had gone his normal weight and taken Varner's spot maybe he would have won?

Could be that Bo sees it as Cael did and does not want to try and unseat a friend?

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On 2/13/2020 at 12:39 PM, Crotalus said:

Doesn't it take a big time ego to give up 20 pounds to try and make the team against a 5 time and a 4 time world/Olympic medalist instead of cutting 3 lbs? You think Taylor dominates him so bad that that sounds like the best path?

Yes, of course. It’s all part of the same point. There’s truckloads of ego in giving up 20 pounds and trying to make the weight against Snyder and Cox, especially when there’s a weight you can easily make that while no cakewalk is at least your weight class. 

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On 2/14/2020 at 8:39 AM, Lurker said:

So I guess the big question I have is, why are some getting so work up about it, and seemingly taking it so personally?  IF, and I'm just speculating here, but if his mindset is not at all going to worry about weight class, but focus strictly on the training and technique and give it my best go, let the chips fall where they may......what is wrong with that?  How is that a waste of time or money or any of the other emotions I've seen on here about it?  We are talking about someone who A) know he has a very big challenge to overcome regardless of which weight class he is going to go (I mean he has mat time with DT, JC, and KS....he probably knows where he stands) and 2) has a solid history of moving up a weight and being successful. So I guess I just don't understand the outcry of someone who has been nothing but successful pursuing their path on their terms.  I guess its that "if I don't agree with it I gotta talk about how stupid it is, or a waste of our time and money, or question his sincerity in what he wants"  And please don't give me that I pay USA Wrestling money so these athletes need to be doing what I think they should be doing routine.  No....they don't.

It’s fun to get worked up. It’s fun to speculate. I’m sure the vast majority of us are too old to compete so what else can we do?

As for me, I’m as much puzzled as anything else. What does it mean to seek the greatest challenge? The greatest challenge knows no bounds. As someone pointed out he could go 125kg. He could wrestle with with only one arm. He could not eat for a week prior to the trials. He could deliberately give up nine points at the start of each match before he really starts wrestling. I’m being ridiculous? Yes. But where do you draw the line between a real challenge and nonsense?

Bo is a tremendous talent who took on some tremendous challenges in college and prevailed. His junior year he took on Gabe Dean and won. He moved up again his senior year and won. But choosing to go 97kg vs 86kg is a challenge of a different kind and seems closer to spotting everyone nine points than a realistic challenge. When Bo defeated Dean that was the next step. He was already a two time finalist and one time champ. Dean was the man. You could argue that winning another title at 174 was a been there, done that proposition. To rise to the levels of the greats - Dake moving up to take on Taylor, Mark Schultz moving up to take one Banach - he  had to seize the moment and take on Dean. It was quite possible that Bo’s senior year would not have presented the same opportunity.

Compare to the current situation- Bo’s never made a senior world team, we don’t know how long he’s sticking around, and he clearly has a much better shot of making the team at 86kg even though it will be no cake walk. All else equal - which things hardly are - between the weight disparity and the two domestic world champions in the weight versus one at 86kg who’s coming off a big injury, if the goal is to maximize his chances of getting to the worlds, it makes no sense to go 97kg. 

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1 minute ago, BigTimeFan said:

It’s fun to get worked up. It’s fun to speculate. I’m sure the vast majority of us are too old to compete so what else can we do?

As for me, I’m as much puzzled as anything else. What does it mean to seek the greatest challenge? The greatest challenge knows no bounds. As someone pointed out he could go 125kg. He could wrestle with with only one arm. He could not eat for a week prior to the trials. He could deliberately give up nine points at the start of each match before he really starts wrestling. I’m being ridiculous? Yes. But where do you draw the line between a real challenge and nonsense?

Bo is a tremendous talent who took on some tremendous challenges in college and prevailed. His junior year he took on Gabe Dean and won. He moved up again his senior year and won. But choosing to go 97kg vs 86kg is a challenge of a different kind and seems closer to spotting everyone nine points than a realistic challenge. When Bo defeated Dean that was the next step. He was already a two time finalist and one time champ. Dean was the man. You could argue that winning another title at 174 was a been there, done that proposition. To rise to the levels of the greats - Dake moving up to take on Taylor, Mark Schultz moving up to take one Banach - he  had to seize the moment and take on Dean. It was quite possible that Bo’s senior year would not have presented the same opportunity.

Compare to the current situation- Bo’s never made a senior world team, we don’t know how long he’s sticking around, and he clearly has a much better shot of making the team at 86kg even though it will be no cake walk. All else equal - which things hardly are - between the weight disparity and the two domestic world champions in the weight versus one at 86kg who’s coming off a big injury, if the goal is to maximize his chances of getting to the worlds, it makes no sense to go 97kg. 

Again I understand questions and speculation. I’m really speaking to those who seemingly take it and/or make it personal. Those that are judging him I guess maybe a better way to put it. Nobody on here is in any place whatsoever to judge him, or any of these athletes, on what they want to do, and what path they feel is best for them. We just don’t know, but many on here ..booooy we sure have come up with our conclusions.....without spending one single minute in the room or in his training process with him. 

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6 minutes ago, BigTimeFan said:

He could deliberately give up nine points at the start of each match before he really starts wrestling.

Pico basically did this a few years ago and nearly made the team. So in Bo's mind, that's already been done. Needs a bigger challenge.

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3 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Again I understand questions and speculation. I’m really speaking to those who seemingly take it and/or make it personal. Those that are judging him I guess maybe a better way to put it. Nobody on here is in any place whatsoever to judge him, or any of these athletes, on what they want to do, and what path they feel is best for them. We just don’t know, but many on here ..booooy we sure have come up with our conclusions.....without spending one single minute in the room or in his training process with him. 

Of course none of us are in a place to judge Bo. But it is fun to speculate, especially when his decision doesn't seem to make any sense. I, for one, really question the way the NLWC has handled Bo. They could have let him know that DT was out last year and Bo would have had a cake walk to the world team. This year, they bring in Snyder. I know Bo is not afraid of a challenge, but Snyder didn't come over to take a back seat in regards to training. So how can the NLWC be fully committed to helping Bo make the team at 97? Or maybe Bo really isn't fully committed (no judgement) given he doesn't want to cut to 86 or fill out to 97. We'll likely never know.

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7 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

Of course none of us are in a place to judge Bo. But it is fun to speculate, especially when his decision doesn't seem to make any sense. I, for one, really question the way the NLWC has handled Bo. They could have let him know that DT was out last year and Bo would have had a cake walk to the world team. This year, they bring in Snyder. I know Bo is not afraid of a challenge, but Snyder didn't come over to take a back seat in regards to training. So how can the NLWC be fully committed to helping Bo make the team at 97? Or maybe Bo really isn't fully committed (no judgement) given he doesn't want to cut to 86 or fill out to 97. We'll likely never know.

This is kind of my point,

Can you site the conversations you’ve had with Bo, Cael, Taylor, or anyone in NLWC for you to conclude that:

1) They didn’t let Bo know Taylor’s situation?  (One question I always had for this was if Taylor’s best interest was Bo’s only reason for not going 86...why did he go 92 for U-23?)

2) NLWC staff did not have conversations with Bo about Snyder prior to coming to an agreement? 
 

3) NLWC’s level of communication and commitment to Bo, and vice versa?

I know the message boards talking about these a lot, and If you can tell me the conversations you’ve had with the NLWC guys that confirm those statements, then I’ll apologize to you and shut up. If you haven’t had those conversations, then you are making statements on things you are in no position to make statements on, particularly when you try to put them across as statements of fact. 

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I’ll try another way, along the speculating spectrum. 
 

A scenario where the athlete is less driven by focusing on a result and more on the processes of making the best version of themselves as possible. And in working with his family and his team decides the path he wants to take for himself and his future. 
 

Is that scenario any more or less likely than an athlete who has been a major part of the program is being shunned and held in the dark by his...in a very big way, family.....and he just doesn’t really care that much but is just going through the motions. 
 

I’m not asking which one is more likely, I’ll just ask would you agree it’s at least 50/50. 

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17 minutes ago, Lurker said:

If you can tell me the conversations you’ve had with the NLWC guys that confirm those statements, then I’ll apologize to you and shut up. If you haven’t had those conversations, then you are making statements on things you are in no position to make statements on, particularly when you try to put them across as statements of fact. 

This is ridiculous. I am just speculating based on outward appearances. I have never stated anything other than that and never put my statements across as facts. My opinion matters not, but this is what internet forums are for.

As for Bo going 92 for U23, I believe (but could be wrong) that he had to. He was given a special wrestle-off because the missed the U23 trials while trying to make the senior team at 92.

7 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I’m not asking which one is more likely, I’ll just ask would you agree it’s at least 50/50. 

Your speculation is just as valid and maybe even more so.

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8 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

This is ridiculous. I am just speculating based on outward appearances. I have never stated anything other than that and never put my statements across as facts. My opinion matters not, but this is what internet forums are for.

As for Bo going 92 for U23, I believe (but could be wrong) that he had to. He was given a special wrestle-off because the missed the U23 trials while trying to make the senior team at 92.

Your speculation is just as valid and maybe even more so.

I’m just quoting here:

”They could have let him know Taylor was out.”  This is not a question, asking/speculating what conversations they did/didn’t have. This is a statement, stating they kept him in the dark. Your statement about Snyder, again not speculating on what conversations they had but taking a position they brought him in without giving Bo any consideration. You are in fact making statements. We can agree to disagree and that’s okay, these are just my questions in the whole Bo’s weight topic. 
 

As for the scenario I asked about being just as and possibly more valid, again that’s kind of what I mean. It’s at least 50/50 between the two. Yet 95% of the talk on here is presenting the second scenario, and many presenting as THIS IS what is going on. 

Edit: I didn’t think about that criteria for him going 92 for U23, would make sense and you are probably right. 

 

Edited by Lurker

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2 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I’m just quoting here:

”They could have let him know Taylor was out.”  This is not a question, asking/speculating what conversations they did/didn’t have. This is a statement, stating they kept him in the dark. Your statement about Snyder, again not speculating on what conversations they had but taking a position they brought him in without giving Bo any consideration. You are in fact making statements. We can agree to disagree and that’s okay, these are just my questions in the whole Bo’s weight topic. 
 

As for the scenario I asked about being just as and possibly more valid, again that’s kind of what I mean. It’s at least 50/50 between the two. Yet 95% of the talk on here is presenting the second scenario, and many presenting as THIS IS what is going on. 
 

 

It's about context. It is not hard to realize that I, and pretty much everyone else on here, have no first hand accounting of the inner workings of Bo's life or the NLWC. I am just making "statements" about the way I view the situation as an outsider.

And my view is that he is not going 86 because he doesn't want to compete with Taylor. If that has nothing to do with it and he just wants to train to be the best version of himself possible and not cut 3 lbs, it's hard to believe he really cares about making the Olympic team. He's not beating J'den and Kyle (twice) while giving up 20 lbs. He couldn't beat J'den giving up about 8 lbs. But maybe he knows he can't beat DT at 86 so it doesn't matter.

I could be wrong. I'm probably wrong. None of these "statements" about how I view things are statements of fact. I can add this disclaimer at the bottom of all of my posts, if that would make things clearer.

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1 minute ago, Crotalus said:

It's about context. It is not hard to realize that I, and pretty much everyone else on here, have no first hand accounting of the inner workings of Bo's life or the NLWC. I am just making "statements" about the way I view the situation as an outsider.

And my view is that he is not going 86 because he doesn't want to compete with Taylor. If that has nothing to do with it and he just wants to train to be the best version of himself possible and not cut 3 lbs, it's hard to believe he really cares about making the Olympic team. He's not beating J'den and Kyle (twice) while giving up 20 lbs. He couldn't beat J'den giving up about 8 lbs. But maybe he knows he can't beat DT at 86 so it doesn't matter.

I could be wrong. I'm probably wrong. None of these "statements" about how I view things are statements of fact. I can add this disclaimer at the bottom of all of my posts, if that would make things clearer.

I get it and I’m not trying to single you out or anything. We just happened to get into the conversation. I should clarify a little in that there are some on here that...well it’s truly obnoxious. To the degree I’ve read comments that Bo Nickal is “wasting my money”. It’s more those I’m questioning and you don’t fall in that category, I wasn’t trying to come across like that,  like I said you and I just got into the conversation. Certainly understand the questioning and outward appearance, it’s just the many that take it to a ridiculous level. 

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6 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I should clarify a little in that there are some on here that...well it’s truly obnoxious. To the degree I’ve read comments that Bo Nickal is “wasting my money”.

 

Certainly understand the questioning and outward appearance, it’s just the many that take it to a ridiculous level. 

I certainly agree with you here.

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3 hours ago, WillieBoy said:

On Bo wrestling Taylor - remember when Cael made his comeback after the bet with his team? He went up a weight rather than ace out Varner for the 2011 World Championships. Still took 5th up a weight. If he had gone his normal weight and taken Varner's spot maybe he would have won?

Could be that Bo sees it as Cael did and does not want to try and unseat a friend?

Ummm, nice story, except Sanderson took 5th at 84kg in 2011. The same weight he won the Olympics in 2004.

Varner took bronze that same year, 2011, at 96kg

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9 hours ago, 77again said:

Ummm, nice story, except Sanderson took 5th at 84kg in 2011. The same weight he won the Olympics in 2004.

Varner took bronze that same year, 2011, at 96kg

Got the weights mixed up. I understand he would rather have gone the weight Varner was. Wrong, maybe?

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