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shieldofpistis

Did Ohio St lose opportunities for future by not using redshirt more?

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Ohio State gets great wrestlers but not all on the same team same year like Penn St has and Iowa doing.  Do you think Ohio State should have redshirted 125 pounder, 133 pounder, and others? 

 

Do you think sometimes the reason for not redshirting is that wrestler wants to graduate in 4?

 

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21 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

Ohio State gets great wrestlers but not all on the same team same year like Penn St has and Iowa doing.  Do you think Ohio State should have redshirted 125 pounder, 133 pounder, and others? 

 

Do you think sometimes the reason for not redshirting is that wrestler wants to graduate in 4?

 

I do think in some cases it is the desire to graduate in four years. Being elite is a lifestyle choice in wrestling. For example, while watching your weight is common in a lot of sports, the limits are somewhat arbitrary unlike in wrestling where maintaining a precise weight at precise points in time is mandatory.  And given the restrictions on team construction it is sometimes out of the athlete's hands what weight they must maintain. That has an impact on performance.  Pletcher is a good example. After starting at 141 he wrestled 2 years at 133 before going back to 141. It's not normal to get lighter as you get older. That is a long winded way of saying, I think that the mental and physical toll is enough that it would be natural to see a light at the end of the tunnel and sense some relief at moving steadily toward it rather than pausing along the way. 

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Did they lose opportunities... that remains to be seen.  Decatur looks like a bad call but he's got 3 more years of eligibility and a redshirt still to use if needed. Heinselman you can can try to spin either way, but he doesn't look like a big time future point scorer.

The idea that they haven't had great wrestlers on the "same team same year" is a bit silly.  They just ran off 5 years averaging over 105 points at NCAAs.  Iowa hasn't had enough guys on the "same team same year" since 2010.  

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4 minutes ago, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

Did they lose opportunities... that remains to be seen.  Decatur looks like a bad call but he's got 3 more years of eligibility and a redshirt still to use if needed. Heinselman you can can try to spin either way, but he doesn't look like a big time future point scorer.

The idea that they haven't had great wrestlers on the "same team same year" is a bit silly.  They just ran off 5 years averaging over 105 points at NCAAs.  Iowa hasn't had enough guys on the "same team same year" since 2010.  

I respect you very much.  Thank you for responding.  I understand they have had great teams during the Steiber, Snyder, Tomasello, Martin eras---- and actually the gap between them and Penn St is getting smaller.  I am simply evaulating for the Buckeyes to win it all----not in comparison to the other teams. 

Heiselman seems so small.  He seems to get 3/4th of the way into a shot and then can't finish them?

Did Romero and Smith use their redshirts? What about Kinner?  I don't think Moore did.  Just think if Moore saved his redshirt from his freshman year.  

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16 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I do think in some cases it is the desire to graduate in four years. Being elite is a lifestyle choice in wrestling. For example, while watching your weight is common in a lot of sports, the limits are somewhat arbitrary unlike in wrestling where maintaining a precise weight at precise points in time is mandatory.  And given the restrictions on team construction it is sometimes out of the athlete's hands what weight they must maintain. That has an impact on performance.  Pletcher is a good example. After starting at 141 he wrestled 2 years at 133 before going back to 141. It's not normal to get lighter as you get older. That is a long winded way of saying, I think that the mental and physical toll is enough that it would be natural to see a light at the end of the tunnel and sense some relief at moving steadily toward it rather than pausing along the way. 

So basically if you don't redshirt as a freshman than you don't think you should redshirt at all?

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Any wrestler choosing PSU, tOSU, Iowa, OSU and a very small handful of other schools is not thinking of graduating in 4 years.  They are going to those schools to wrestle and wrestle only.  They have world's and olympic aspirations.  Some may choose MMA but most are looking at being involved with wrestling for life.

They will defer enroll, greyshirt, redshirt, olympic redshirt, medical redshirt to the max to achieve the goal of NCAA champion.

Let's face it, once upon a time NCAA champs became surgeons, lawyers and engineers.  There may be a few today but that's all there is, a few.

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15 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

So basically if you don't redshirt as a freshman than you don't think you should redshirt at all?

I wasn't trying to advocate for a point of view. Rather I was looking to illustrate one point of view. It is an interesting question though. How often do wrestlers take a redshirt after completing at least one of their years of eligibility ala Zain Retherford or all the Olympic redshirts this year? I admit I have no idea. 

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14 minutes ago, Boompa said:

Any wrestler choosing PSU, tOSU, Iowa, OSU and a very small handful of other schools is not thinking of graduating in 4 years.  They are going to those schools to wrestle and wrestle only.  They have world's and olympic aspirations.  Some may choose MMA but most are looking at being involved with wrestling for life.

They will defer enroll, greyshirt, redshirt, olympic redshirt, medical redshirt to the max to achieve the goal of NCAA champion.

Let's face it, once upon a time NCAA champs became surgeons, lawyers and engineers.  There may be a few today but that's all there is, a few.

Perhaps too broad a statement, but not far from wrong. On the current PSU squad you see two brothers taking very different approaches. One has no redshirt and is on track for four years while the other has already taken both grey and red shirts. Not sure that is a desire to lengthen as much as it is a bow to roster realities. 

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15 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

I respect you very much.  Thank you for responding.  I understand they have had great teams during the Steiber, Snyder, Tomasello, Martin eras---- and actually the gap between them and Penn St is getting smaller.  I am simply evaulating for the Buckeyes to win it all----not in comparison to the other teams. 

Heiselman seems so small.  He seems to get 3/4th of the way into a shot and then can't finish them?

Did Romero and Smith use their redshirts? What about Kinner?  I don't think Moore did.  Just think if Moore saved his redshirt from his freshman year.  

No problem! Always enjoy the discussion. Looking just at the past 10 years:

Moore, Romero, Smith, Sasso, Tomasello, all three Jordans, Kinner, Singletary, Kharchla, Heflin, L. Stieber -- all redshirted.

Notable guys that didn't: Snyder, Martin, Pletcher, H. Stieber, and so far--Heinselman and Decatur.  

You can point to different reasons to each guy that didn't use one, but the most common reason has been that the team has been close enough to the top for Ryan to believe he should put his best team on the mat.  

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6 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Perhaps too broad a statement, but not far from wrong. On the current PSU squad you see two brothers taking very different approaches. One has no redshirt and is on track for four years while the other has already taken both grey and red shirts. Not sure that is a desire to lengthen as much as it is a bow to roster realities. 

That is because one Lee has become a flat out stud in the sport and the other is looking at the bench.

Poor comparison.

Nevills should enter the portal by April if he had half a brain.

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7 minutes ago, Boompa said:

That is because one Lee has become a flat out stud in the sport and the other is looking at the bench.

Poor comparison.

Nevills should enter the portal by April if he had half a brain.

I don’t know that there’s any rush for him to leave.  He has a redshirt and he’s in one of the top 3 training environments in the country.  Kerkvliet also has a redshirt and a history of knee injury as a heavyweight.   Why not stay and get better for at least a year practicing with Kerkvliet, Snyder, Sanderson and Varner.  Could be even better places to land after a year or two and he’ll be even better prepared.

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1 hour ago, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

No problem! Always enjoy the discussion. Looking just at the past 10 years:

Moore, Romero, Smith, Sasso, Tomasello, all three Jordans, Kinner, Singletary, Kharchla, Heflin, L. Stieber -- all redshirted.

Notable guys that didn't: Snyder, Martin, Pletcher, H. Stieber, and so far--Heinselman and Decatur.  

You can point to different reasons to each guy that didn't use one, but the most common reason has been that the team has been close enough to the top for Ryan to believe he should put his best team on the mat.  

Do you believe Ryan is among the top 5 NCAA wrestling coaches?

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5 hours ago, Boompa said:

That is because one Lee has become a flat out stud in the sport and the other is looking at the bench.

Poor comparison.

Nevills should enter the portal by April if he had half a brain.

That's because it is not a comparison, it is an illustration. Not every wrestler at these schools you listed wants to be there 6 years as you claimed, as is illustrated by two brothers taking different paths through the same school.

And why so dismissive of three people in a single post? 

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This is a hot topic among posters on tOSU forums. Tom Ryan is famous for putting his best team on the mat. I remember the debate when he pulled Martin and Snyder's Red-shirt. They each ended up  winning the National Title, but the Buckeyes still finished second to an unbelievable PSU team. The debate is the Buckeyes could have won another title if he would have held on to those RS's. Ryan did RS NATO, BO as well as someone else that year and RS Micah the following. I know Pletcher would have benefited by a RS his freshman year but with an injury to Hayes he had to wrestle. Pletcher was a round of 12 guy up a weight and the move likely cost him the notoriety of being a 4X-AA.

No doubt Malik and Decatur would have benefited from a RS season. But, as was mentioned prior JD still has 3 more years and I could definitely see a RS in his future but time will tell. If Malik never gets above 130 lbs in thew next 6 years a RS would not help him. He is solid but undersized to say the least. 

Tom Ryan is every bit a top 5 head coach in D1 wrestling. I do not know how one even asks that question. The Buckeyes have knocked off PSU three times in the B1G Tournament in years the Nittany Lions won the NCAA tournament.  Along with his 2015 title the Buckeyes have been runner-up what seems like every year since 2007.

Edited by Cruiser94

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23 minutes ago, Cruiser94 said:

Along with his 2015 title the Buckeyes have been runner-up what seems like every year since 2007.

I love what Ryan has done at tOSU, but this statement necessitates pointing out the difference between someone's "seems like" and the actual reality.  Still credit is due, since they have taken 1st, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd and 2nd the past 5 years which is super impressive considering what PSU has done.

2007:  10th

2008:  2nd

2009:  2nd

2010:  8th

2011:  29th

2012:  5th

2013:  6th

2014:  6th

2015:  1st

2016:  3rd

2017:  2nd

2018:  2nd

2019: 2nd

 

 

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16 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I do think in some cases it is the desire to graduate in four years. Being elite is a lifestyle choice in wrestling. For example, while watching your weight is common in a lot of sports, the limits are somewhat arbitrary unlike in wrestling where maintaining a precise weight at precise points in time is mandatory.  And given the restrictions on team construction it is sometimes out of the athlete's hands what weight they must maintain. That has an impact on performance.  Pletcher is a good example. After starting at 141 he wrestled 2 years at 133 before going back to 141. It's not normal to get lighter as you get older. That is a long winded way of saying, I think that the mental and physical toll is enough that it would be natural to see a light at the end of the tunnel and sense some relief at moving steadily toward it rather than pausing along the way. 

He just wrestled up his freshman year due to tomasello.

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3 hours ago, Cruiser94 said:

Thanks for looking it up for me. 

Actually have things like that memorized.  Sorry, if any of that came of as negative.  I am pro Ryan all the way and he has done an amazing job at tOSU.  I just have spent quite a bit of time pointing out the actual numbers for the top 5 or so teams over basically the exact time frame you mentioned.  Iowa is the ONLY team that has finished in the top 5 every season since then(not true they took 8th Brands 1st season-2007) and even PSU, with 8 championships, does not have a better average finish over that timeframe.

PSU:  11,3,17,9,1,1,1,1,6,1,1,1,1=54/13=4.15

Iowa:  8,1,1,1,3,3,4,4,2,5, 4,3,4=43/13=3.31

Edited by MSU158
Iowa didn't place top 5 Brands first season at Iowa

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9 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Actually have things like that memorized.  Sorry, if any of that came of as negative.  I am pro Ryan all the way and he has done an amazing job at tOSU.  I just have spent quite a bit of time pointing out the actual numbers for the top 5 or so teams over basically the exact time frame you mentioned.  Iowa is the ONLY team that has finished in the top 5 every season since then and even PSU, with 8 championships, does not have a better average finish over that timeframe.

PSU:  11,3,17,9,1,1,1,1,6,1,1,1,1=54/13=4.15

Iowa:  8,1,1,1,3,3,4,4,2,5, 4,3,4=43/13=3.31

You could probably win a few bar bets with that stat.

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19 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Actually have things like that memorized.  Sorry, if any of that came of as negative.  I am pro Ryan all the way and he has done an amazing job at tOSU.  I just have spent quite a bit of time pointing out the actual numbers for the top 5 or so teams over basically the exact time frame you mentioned.  Iowa is the ONLY team that has finished in the top 5 every season since then and even PSU, with 8 championships, does not have a better average finish over that timeframe.

PSU:  11,3,17,9,1,1,1,1,6,1,1,1,1=54/13=4.15

Iowa:  8,1,1,1,3,3,4,4,2,5, 4,3,4=43/13=3.31

Now do medians : - )

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44 minutes ago, Cradle1 said:

He just wrestled up his freshman year due to tomasello.

I am pretty sure the plan was to RS Pletcher his freshman year. However an injury to Ke'Shawn Hayes resulted in Pletcher taking the mat at 141 for the Buckeyes.

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39 minutes ago, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

Now do medians : - )

Not a fan of medians in this situation.  They essentially "throw out" outliers as if they don't count.  But, in this situation they should and do.  You can't just cherry pick years and say they don't count when the topic itself is consistent finishes.  But, so everyone knows the median for PSU over that time frame would be 1.  The median for Iowa would be 3.  The median for tOSU would also be 3.

Now, what would OBVIOUSLY favor PSU IMMENSELY would be the average finish over the past 10 years.

PSU:  9,1,1,1,1,6,1,1,1,1=23/10=2.3

Iowa:  1,3,3,4,4,2,5,4,3,4=33/10=3.3

 

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