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Has there ever been a team with 10 guys placing in the top 4 or 5 at NCAA's?

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I did say:

 

16 minutes ago, DoubleHalf said:

 

You are entitled to your singular opinion just like everyone else. The only thing I take slight issue with is how in the position you take, your comments are stated like they are facts or absolutes when again, it is just the opinion of one person in one thread of one forum and so on... 


Not sure where you are interpreting a lack of tolerance or openness when I clearly mention what it was that I took issue with. I also like how you stated “my (is in me) individual experience” where as you have “observable evidence.” 
 

We can agree you disagree at this point. I think the camp had value based on my experience and I’m willing to bet many other participants feel the same based on my observable evidence. You think the camp is not worth the time or money, which is totally cool. Either way, neither of us should be up on a pedestal stating opinions as facts on what is or is not a good investment of time in money in the sport of wrestling. 

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Just now, russelscout said:

It is, but we also shouldn't make decisions based on one persons experience. Shouldn't there be an analysis of the greater impact of the camp too; sort of an anecdotal vs systematic approach.

I didn't say we should make decisions based on one persons experience. I said the value someone gets from any camp is determined by them and only them, based on their own individual wants, needs and desires.  Nothing more, nothing less.  

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Personally, I got nothing from those camps. Ran a lot and did a lot of live wrestling but nobody was really around to correct us or give advice-just too many campers and so few instructors. It’s not like the competition was that great either, I think I was the only state champ in my group. It was the 90s so maybe it’s changed but at the time I was frustrated with how little instruction we got. It seemed like the only goal was to make us really really tired. Obviously, others could have had a different experience. 

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1 minute ago, DoubleHalf said:

I did say:

 


Not sure where you are interpreting a lack of tolerance or openness when I clearly mention what it was that I took issue with. I also like how you stated “my (is in me) individual experience” where as you have “observable evidence.” 
 

We can agree you disagree at this point. I think the camp had value based on my experience and I’m willing to bet many other participants feel the same based on my observable evidence. You think the camp is not worth the time or money, which is totally cool. Either way, neither of us should be up on a pedestal stating opinions as facts on what is or is not a good investment of time in money in the sport of wrestling. 

Well its not an opinion that none of the top wrestlers in the country train like that. 

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Just now, russelscout said:

Well its not an opinion that none of the top wrestlers in the country train like that. 


The really comical part about what you just said is under the topic of the only team to have 10 all Americans that were coming off of an NCAA team title and all of those wrestlers and coaches apart of the program were the ones coaching and training the participants. It’s interesting to think everything they would teach and train is completely counter to what made them successful that year or in previous years. 
 

Im bowing out of this discussion now... It feels a bit like talking to my grandmother about politics.

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Just now, Force118 said:

Personally, I got nothing from those camps. Ran a lot and did a lot of live wrestling but nobody was really around to correct us or give advice-just too many campers and so few instructors. It’s not like the competition was that great either, I think I was the only state champ in my group. It was the 90s so maybe it’s changed but at the time I was frustrated with how little instruction we got. It seemed like the only goal was to make us really really tired. Obviously, others could have had a different experience. 

Another thing I was told was that the strength staff actually hated this camp because the college guys end up doing way more running than normal and it actually hinders their training. 

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2 minutes ago, DoubleHalf said:


The really comical part about what you just said is under the topic of the only team to have 10 all Americans that were coming off of an NCAA team title and all of those wrestlers and coaches apart of the program were the ones coaching and training the participants. It’s interesting to think everything they would teach and train is completely counter to what made them successful that year or in previous years. 
 

Im bowing out of this discussion now... It feels a bit like talking to my grandmother about politics.

I bet very few, if any of those AA's attended the camp in high school. 

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2 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Another thing I was told was that the strength staff actually hated this camp because the college guys end up doing way more running than normal and it actually hinders their training. 

I would agree

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15 minutes ago, DoubleHalf said:


The really comical part about what you just said is under the topic of the only team to have 10 all Americans that were coming off of an NCAA team title and all of those wrestlers and coaches apart of the program were the ones coaching and training the participants. It’s interesting to think everything they would teach and train is completely counter to what made them successful that year or in previous years. 
 

Im bowing out of this discussion now... It feels a bit like talking to my grandmother about politics.

I think part of it is that for 28 days they have to schedule 16 hours of activities for campers. The easiest way to do that is running and mass conditioning style programming. Stuff that requires very little supervision-maybe 1 guy for 30-40 campers. So that’s what they do. Not because they are using up to date training methodology. Most of the time they are just trying to kill time. Just giving my perspective.

Edited by Force118

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3000 for all inclusive 28 days. That means meals, lodging and instruction/activities revolving around wrestling, plus the opportunity to make friendships and connections with other wrestlers. Comes out to about $108 per day. Plus it gets the kids out of the house and gives the parents a break from having to watch over their own kids. Maybe the tangible results are not enough for russel, but how much money do you think non wrestling parents spend to send their kids away to recreational summer camps?

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6 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

3000 for all inclusive 28 days. That means meals, lodging and instruction/activities revolving around wrestling, plus the opportunity to make friendships and connections with other wrestlers. Comes out to about $108 per day. Plus it gets the kids out of the house and gives the parents a break from having to watch over their own kids. Maybe the tangible results are not enough for russel, but how much money do you think non wrestling parents spend to send their kids away to recreational summer camps?

Hey if someone wants to send there kid to get away, go on a bit of a wrestling retreat, make friends, help develop a love for wrestling, this is an option, maybe even a great one. If you view it as a way to optimize your training, then I don't think so.

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13 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Hey if someone wants to send there kid to get away, go on a bit of a wrestling retreat, make friends, help develop a love for wrestling, this is an option, maybe even a great one. If you view it as a way to optimize your training, then I don't think so.

I think that's just it though.  I think for the most part kids/parents aren't looking at it as a way of optimizing their training.  They're looking at it for the things you mentioned above and tack on learning a variety of things from a variety of people (something we would want them to do throughout their entire career, right?) and getting experiences.  Life experiences.  I'd be willing to bet if you polled the kids/parents at just about any of these types of camps, what is the #1 reason of going to a summer camp...there would be a whole lot more of those other reasons than there would be to optimize my training.  I'm just speculating.

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14 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I think that's just it though.  I think for the most part kids/parents aren't looking at it as a way of optimizing their training.  They're looking at it for the things you mentioned above and tack on learning a variety of things from a variety of people (something we would want them to do throughout their entire career, right?) and getting experiences.  Life experiences.  I'd be willing to bet if you polled the kids/parents at just about any of these types of camps, what is the #1 reason of going to a summer camp...there would be a whole lot more of those other reasons than there would be to optimize my training.  I'm just speculating.

That could very well be. The kids I knew that did this were looking to take the next step though. I guess I didn't really consider that people would make that kind of commitment without their goals in mind.

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24 minutes ago, russelscout said:

That could very well be. The kids I knew that did this were looking to take the next step though. I guess I didn't really consider that people would make that kind of commitment without their goals in mind.

Why does it have to be without their goals in mind?  How can you speak to the intent of all of these kids making a commitment without their goals in mind?  A variety of experiences and teachings is absolutely beneficial to one's goals.

Edited by Lurker

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6 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Why does it have to be without their goals in mind?  How can you speak to the intent of all of these kids making a commitment without their goals in mind?  A variety of experiences and teachings is absolutely beneficial to one's goals.

Well because in high school your time is valuable. You only have 4 years. To commit to 28 days of something is to decommit to any other option at that time. A variety of experience is beneficial, but there is not a lot of variety in a 28 day camp either. 

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4 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Well because in high school your time is valuable. You only have 4 years. To commit to 28 days of something is to decommit to any other option at that time. A variety of experience is beneficial, but there is not a lot of variety in a 28 day camp either. 

So which camp(s) do you recommend that do exactly the things that JRob's Camps dont?

 

You also claim that $3000 for said camp is not worth while. How much would you say said camp SHOULD cost?

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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32 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Well because in high school your time is valuable. You only have 4 years. To commit to 28 days of something is to decommit to any other option at that time. A variety of experience is beneficial, but there is not a lot of variety in a 28 day camp either. 

So just that I understand you correctly, maybe I don’t... doing a camp for 28 days, that you cannot do the other 337 days of the year because it is not available to you, with people who won’t be available to you and most likely otherwise would not have met, is an act in decomitting from your goals and limiting your variety in experiences and teachings?  That’s the jist I got of what you are saying in your post, is that accurate?

Edited by Lurker

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2 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

So which camp(s) do you recommend that do exactly the things that JRob's Camps dont?

 

You also claim that $3000 for said camp is not worth while. How much would you say said camp SHOULD cost?

I would be more focused on trying to develop a routine that I can continually go back to.

First, I would find out what the local schools and clubs do in the summer. So if a school has a roll around, freestyle practice or something give them a call and see if our kids can get in on that. If I have some talented kids, I would call a local college; Naia, juco, d3 and ask if they have anything like that and if so, could I bring some guys. If you can find a small college to get your kids to roll with, it is going to be a game changer and I would take 4 practices in a month over any intensive camp. If you start doing this, you can get 2-3 great practices in a week, with better learning sessions than you can get in a season some times. 

Obviously if you can get to some freestyle tourneys or offseason tourneys it is great. I don't think you need to do a Fargo type tournament or anything, but just getting on the mat to gauge where you are in the offseason is a great plan. 

I think the biggest thing is developing a consistent lifting plan that focusses on progressive overload 2-4 times a week. Its more important than extreme amounts of cardio IMO, especially in the offseason. The one thing about a 28 day camp is that it is a full month of abandoning any training routine you are doing on your own. Lifting and creating a good routine is very important and the best coaches I have been around made a huge emphasis on this. 

Most of these things are at the cost of gas or small expenses to take part in a club once a week. 

For me, these things would be priority one over any kind of camp

If I am going to send a kid to a camp, I would actually want them to attend a much shorter camps that is focused on technique. I had a coach tell me that a kid is doing good if he can take one thing away from camp, and I think that's true. I may be a little spoiled here in Iowa, but if you can find a 1 day camp from a Jason Nolf for little cost, do it. Then take what you learn back to the practice rooms and try them out. Then another one may come up with Spencer Lee. Do that and bring some of that stuff back to practice. It doesn't even need to be as elite as those guys. You can have a kid go to a camp with a D2 natty champ and take away more than they did from Cael Sanderson camp. I think there are diminishing returns the longer the camps go. 

That is how I would and have organized wrestlers off-seasons. Its the best way to get a good bang for your buck too. A good variety, consistency, learning, and plenty of time for trial and error.

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7 minutes ago, Lurker said:

So just that I understand you correctly, maybe I don’t... doing a camp for 28 days, that you cannot do the other 337 days of the year because it is not available to you, with people who won’t be available to you and most likely otherwise would not have met, is an act in decomitting from your goals and limiting your variety in experiences and teachings?  That’s the jist I got of what you are saying in your post, is that accurate?

Yeah, but how much of that is just running? How much of that is just repetitive drilling and live with the same partners.Just because its Zach Sanders telling me to keep running doesn't mean I am benefiting more from it. This 28 days is a block of time not spread over the year, its all in one chunk. I think its better to build a routine that you can keep going back to than carving out a whole month in one place. There is still opportunity to get variety else where. There is no shortage of college guys doing small camps in the summer.

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So I guess maybe our discrepancy is that I don’t feel it’s an all or nothing thing. I don’t feel if you choose to do the JRob, or other type camp....it doesn’t mean your choosing not to do those other things you listed above in your response to BTF.  If we’re talking about experiences of our own and those we’ve known and talked to, did I and those around me (as an athlete and coach):

work with other local schools and clubs...yes; compete in freestyle/Greco tournies....yes. I’m certain I’ve wrestled four times as many FS/GR matches in my life as folk; develop physical training plans...yes; attend different camps/clinics of shorter duration....yes

We also were able to attend a JRob, Gable, McFarland, and other type camps once a year. And there are sooooo many others over time and across the country who have the same answers to those questions. 
 

So I guess my point is I understand one saying hey I’ve been to this camp, it’s not high on my list. I’d be surprised to hear someone say they truly got nothing out of it, but if they went and that’s how they felt I’d take them at their word. I don’t understand saying that choosing to go is decommitting from your goals and limiting your variety in what you can experience. Now if you’re talking about going back year after year after year...that’s a little different. But that’s not what we’re talking about. 

Edited by Lurker

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24 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I would be more focused on trying to develop a routine that I can continually go back to.

First, I would find out what the local schools and clubs do in the summer. So if a school has a roll around, freestyle practice or something give them a call and see if our kids can get in on that. If I have some talented kids, I would call a local college; Naia, juco, d3 and ask if they have anything like that and if so, could I bring some guys. If you can find a small college to get your kids to roll with, it is going to be a game changer and I would take 4 practices in a month over any intensive camp. If you start doing this, you can get 2-3 great practices in a week, with better learning sessions than you can get in a season some times. 

Obviously if you can get to some freestyle tourneys or offseason tourneys it is great. I don't think you need to do a Fargo type tournament or anything, but just getting on the mat to gauge where you are in the offseason is a great plan. 

I think the biggest thing is developing a consistent lifting plan that focusses on progressive overload 2-4 times a week. Its more important than extreme amounts of cardio IMO, especially in the offseason. The one thing about a 28 day camp is that it is a full month of abandoning any training routine you are doing on your own. Lifting and creating a good routine is very important and the best coaches I have been around made a huge emphasis on this. 

Most of these things are at the cost of gas or small expenses to take part in a club once a week. 

For me, these things would be priority one over any kind of camp

If I am going to send a kid to a camp, I would actually want them to attend a much shorter camps that is focused on technique. I had a coach tell me that a kid is doing good if he can take one thing away from camp, and I think that's true. I may be a little spoiled here in Iowa, but if you can find a 1 day camp from a Jason Nolf for little cost, do it. Then take what you learn back to the practice rooms and try them out. Then another one may come up with Spencer Lee. Do that and bring some of that stuff back to practice. It doesn't even need to be as elite as those guys. You can have a kid go to a camp with a D2 natty champ and take away more than they did from Cael Sanderson camp. I think there are diminishing returns the longer the camps go. 

That is how I would and have organized wrestlers off-seasons. Its the best way to get a good bang for your buck too. A good variety, consistency, learning, and plenty of time for trial and error.

Long winded and didnt answer either question.

1. Which camp does this.

2. How much should Jrobs camp cost since you say its not worth it.

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1 minute ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Long winded and didnt answer either question.

1. Which camp does this.

2. How much should Jrobs camp cost since you say its not worth it.

I answered 1. I would just try to spread my times over more smaller camps. 

2. Its not just the cost its the time commitment which is much larger in my opinion. Cost could go down substantially and I still don't know that I would be pumped about a month long camp.

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3 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I answered 1. I would just try to spread my times over more smaller camps. 

2. Its not just the cost its the time commitment which is much larger in my opinion. Cost could go down substantially and I still don't know that I would be pumped about a month long camp.

So...

1. No camp does what youre looking for so youre criticizing all camps and...

2. The price you complained about is irrelevant since number 1...

 

 

In otherwords.. your training experience is what you make of it yourself.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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10 minutes ago, Lurker said:

So I guess my point is I understand one saying hey I’ve been to this camp, it’s not high on my list. I’d be surprised to hear someone say they truly got nothing out of it, but if they went and that’s how they felt I’d take them at their word. I don’t understand saying that choosing to go is decommitting from your goals and limiting your variety in what you can experience. Now if you’re talking about going back year after year after year...that’s a little different. But that’s not what we’re talking about. 

Its not decommiting from your goals, but its limiting your variety. If you truly are trying to optimize a month of training to meet your goals, I think there is a better way to approach a month long block of time than to commit to a dorm room and regimented hard cardio with a bit of technique here and there. 

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9 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Its not decommiting from your goals, but its limiting your variety. If you truly are trying to optimize a month of training to meet your goals, I think there is a better way to approach a month long block of time than to commit to a dorm room and regimented hard cardio with a bit of technique here and there. 

But again, if you are, and a lot of people are, doing all those things that we are talking about the other 9-10 months of the year, it’s not limiting your variety. One aspect is that 28 days away from the normalcy of answering to your parents every night is a huuuuuge variety. A first time in life experience for some. Is that not variety?
 

One thing I would question with you is your certain demand of exactly what this camp is and what is isn’t....having never been to it. 

Edited by Lurker

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