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Fantasy Matchup Dan Hodge vs. Cael Sanderson

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8 minutes ago, Cptafw164 said:

Too bad he wrestled since he was 10.  So you have another example?

What I witnessed at West Point is the boxing coach pulling someone aside from class and asking if they wanted to do boxing...never boxed before...and made THEM national champs in less than a year.  Not just one but several guys.

Must've been against some pretty weak competition, I guess.

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12 minutes ago, Cptafw164 said:

Marciano would have been murdered by an early or late Tyson.  Not fast enough.  Boxing is even more a sport that benefits natural athletes (strength speed reflexes). I know because I taught boxing at USMA and graduated from there.  The reason why West Point has had so many NCBA championships is because a good boxing coach can take someone with the build and physical attributes and make them into a national champ in less than a year.  You CANNOT do that with wrestling.  
 

 

I believe Marciano would have lost to Tyson, but Ali would have defeated Tyson, and Marciano would have defeated Ali.  It's all about match ups. 

 

You really think today's American heavyweight's could compete with Ali, Liston, or Foreman? An an Foreman knocked out Moorer.  I am right on this point.  Fight sports test heart and determination like other sports don't.  If you think the Wilder who just lost to the Gyspy King had a chance against Ali I think you are falling into that silly strap that everything is better as we progress. 

 

There actually is a Ted speech on this on youtube.  The speaker compares how remarkably close Bolt and Jessie Owens were despite all the time. 

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Boxing is a terrible sport to pick if someone is trying to argue the champs of the past are chumps compared to people today. Fact is boxing hasn't changed one iota, technique wise, in the last 75-80 years. The alphabet soup of pretend champs at HWT today is nothing less than a joke. There are a half dozen guys from the 70's that would hammer the entire lot.  Joe Louis could come in as an undersized heavy and murder the entire bunch, and he was boxing in the 40's.

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Has anyone ever watched Hodge crush an apple in his hand?  Or simply shaken his hand?  When I was in the best shape of my life and he was an old man he told me to try to get away from him and I could not.  If he grabs you, you don’t get away.   I take Hodge.  

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8 minutes ago, tommygun said:

Has anyone ever watched Hodge crush an apple in his hand?  Or simply shaken his hand?  When I was in the best shape of my life and he was an old man he told me to try to get away from him and I could not.  If he grabs you, you don’t get away.   I take Hodge.  

So circus level feats of strength correlate to wrestling.  

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10 minutes ago, Cptafw164 said:

So circus level feats of strength correlate to wrestling.  

If you don't realize how important physical strength is to wrestling then you have no business commenting on wrestling, further it completely invalidates your other observations because it shows you don't know what you are talking about. I'm beginning to wonder if you've ever wrestled at all. I'd argue the single greatest physical attribute a wrestler can have is brute power.

Edited by TobusRex

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If you don't realize how important physical strength is to wrestling then you have no business commenting on wrestling, further it completely invalidates your other observations because it shows you don't know what you are talking about. I'm beginning to wonder if you've ever wrestled at all. I'd argue the single greatest physical attribute a wrestler can have is brute power.

 

I’m guessing Gabe Dean and Kollin Moore are both a good bit stronger than Bo Nickal.

 

I’ll take Bo Nickal speed over Kollin Moore strength any day of the week.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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4 hours ago, TobusRex said:

If you don't realize how important physical strength is to wrestling then you have no business commenting on wrestling, further it completely invalidates your other observations because it shows you don't know what you are talking about. I'm beginning to wonder if you've ever wrestled at all. I'd argue the single greatest physical attribute a wrestler can have is brute power.

I disagree adamantly.  It’s important but definitely not most.  Pretty sure Nickal, Nolf, Spencer Lee, Yianni would all agree.

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5 hours ago, TobusRex said:

If you don't realize how important physical strength is to wrestling then you have no business commenting on wrestling, further it completely invalidates your other observations because it shows you don't know what you are talking about. I'm beginning to wonder if you've ever wrestled at all. I'd argue the single greatest physical attribute a wrestler can have is brute power.

Almost every all-American is powerful, and can maintain their power through 7 minutes.  Brutes tire easy.  Tired people wrestle sloppy, sloppy wrestling leads to bad stances and bad shots, which lead to opportunities.  

In the old days of wrestling (and for Greco until the end of time), physical attributes won the day.  Until the beloglazovs came around and had a counter for everything and understood how to be strong in certain positions.  Come to think of it, Sidakov and satiev never appeared to be jacked.  They were strong in positions, but probably could bench press a poodle.  

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So - if I understand this correctly - Kollin Moore would beat Carl Sanderson.

Because better strength training, conditioning, nutrition, supplements, and overall training technology for the modern athletes far exceeds the basics of old wrestlers.

OK, ummm, I'm not as sure as some of you. I have my doubts. 

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4 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

So - if I understand this correctly - Kollin Moore would beat Carl Sanderson.

Because better strength training, conditioning, nutrition, supplements, and overall training technology for the modern athletes far exceeds the basics of old wrestlers.

OK, ummm, I'm not as sure as some of you. I have my doubts. 

That's because they are talking out their asses. Technique isn't the end all, be all of wrestling, there's a thing called "guts" that can take a guy a long, long way. And wrestling is ANCIENT. These guys don't seem to understand the body can only be bent/twisted in so many ways, In other words, there is nothing new on the mat. NOTHING. We wrestle by sissy rules, compared to the ancients, and they didn't use a "point system", so what good would racking up NF points be? 

Edited by TobusRex

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8 hours ago, Le duke said:

 

I’m guessing Gabe Dean and Kollin Moore are both a good bit stronger than Bo Nickal.

 

I’ll take Bo Nickal speed over Kollin Moore strength any day of the week.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'd certainly agree with you on Nickal being better than those guys. But a guy doesn't have to be "jacked" looking to be powerful, Bo didn't seem nervous about tying up with Gabe Dean.

Give me two guys, 1 a dude who hits the weight room 3 or 4 days a week and another a guy who spent every afternoon for 10 years unloading 50 pound sacks of chickenfeed from trucks, and I'll pick that guy throwing chickenfeed around every time. He's got that "farmboy", endurance-strength. That's what you want your guys to have, not muscleheads. Muscleheads don't have the flexibility/balance of the naturally strong dudes, like Bo. 

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8 hours ago, Mokoma said:

I disagree adamantly.  It’s important but definitely not most.  Pretty sure Nickal, Nolf, Spencer Lee, Yianni would all agree.

Don't kid yourself. All those guys are shaved gorillas (with the possible exception of Yianni). The only thing is they have power beautifully married to technique which exploits the modern scoring ruleset. No way Nolf was throwing guys around, dominating them the way he did, unless he was stronger than them. Same for Lee, he's easily the strongest shaved gorilla at 125 judging by how easily he can tilt those guys against their will. Sure, technique has a place and some guys are so good they can compensate for their lack of power (to a point). And speed/endurance are hugely important, but I think if you aren't a really strong boy you are just gonna wilt on the vine in this sport. There are no weak wrestling champions, period. 

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4 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

Don't kid yourself. All those guys are shaved gorillas (with the possible exception of Yianni). The only thing is they have power beautifully married to technique which exploits the modern scoring ruleset. No way Nolf was throwing guys around, dominating them the way he did, unless he was stronger than them. Same for Lee, he's easily the strongest shaved gorilla at 125 judging by how easily he can tilt those guys against their will. Sure, technique has a place and some guys are so good they can compensate for their lack of power (to a point). And speed/endurance are hugely important, but I think if you aren't a really strong boy you are just gonna wilt on the vine in this sport. There are no weak wrestling champions, period. 

I can not tell if you are being serious or not.

 

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On 2/24/2020 at 4:02 PM, TobusRex said:

I think the thing people need to understand is that technique is fluid. It changes over time as the sport is further refined. Hodge would've had benefit of today's knowledge/technique if he wrestled today, but since we never got to see him use today's tactics and we are aware of Cael's mastery, it's all conjecture. However physically Hodge was far more powerful than Cael. He simply overpowered everybody he wrestled with brute strength (although by the standards of the day his technique was good).  Hell, Danny Hodge is around 80 years old and still crushing apples with that ridiculous grip.

Looked it up, he will be 88 in May, I saw him Crush an apple on TV about a year ago.

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6 hours ago, TobusRex said:

That's because they are talking out their asses. Technique isn't the end all, be all of wrestling, there's a thing called "guts" that can take a guy a long, long way. And wrestling is ANCIENT. These guys don't seem to understand the body can only be bent/twisted in so many ways, In other words, there is nothing new on the mat. NOTHING. We wrestle by sissy rules, compared to the ancients, and they didn't use a "point system", so what good would racking up NF points be? 

In ancient Greece, they had palestras with sand and the competitors were covered in Olive oil.  They would lock up and try to take eachother down.  The winner was the one who got their opponent down to the sand with their back flat and landing with your weight on them (kinda like a judo ippon).  The oil helped the sand to stick so there could be evidence that the "fall" caused shoulders to touch.  

I think you are thinking of boxing or pankration.  Boxing was the bloodiest sport with men wearing hard leather gauntlets, sometimes studded with metal.  Men competing in boxing and pankration would ask to compete in pankration BEFORE boxing as boxing caused the most injuries.  

And you are correct, there are no weak wrestling champs, but the strongest person doesn't always win.  You said "Brute Power."  To me, brute power means you can lift big rocks...but you wont be able to lift the same size rock after 4 minutes of wrestling.  Fatigue makes cowards of us all.  The person who wrestles better in the third period is the one who is least tired, the one who is not standing up, the one who still has some juice to finish a takedown for the win.  You can have all the guts you want, but the chances of you hitting that LAT DROP for a pin in the last 15 seconds of a match is not probable.    

Best example of technique over strength:  Royce Gracie and Fedor Emelianko.  Royce was a 170 and beat a juiced Ken Shamrock (also a grappler) easily.  Fedor is chubby and looks like Santa Clause.  There is also Askren.  He was chubby, never stronger than his opponents and was a 4 time national finalist.   

HERE IS A STATE FINALS MATCH:  Brute strength and willpower didn't get the takedown in the beginning.  Trying to brute strength shots with zero set-ups just gassed the guy.  A perfectly timed and executed foot sweep to a gassed opponent ended up in a pin.  Jason Morris didn't look gassed one bit.

CAVEAT:  Watching that, you will probably say, "JV crap like that doesn't work."  While true, Jason Morris was an elite Judoka.  So, one person may see "lucky JV moves"  Other judoka see "Perfectly executed throws."  

 

Edited by Cptafw164

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More than one opponent described Cael as having "crazy, psycho strength". It wasn't just speed that had him winning all those matches. I was technique and heart as well. Few could avoid the Ankle pick and while doing so opened themselves to his other offensive moves.

Cael's signature move was just like John Smith's - a set up for a lot of other techniques whether it worked or not in any particular match. Both had the talent to take advantage of it.

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