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shieldofpistis

Coach that could make Cael-like splash

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1 hour ago, TobusRex said:

Say Cornell makes Grey the HC, and Princeton hires Dake. You are a 3 time state champ and both Dake/Grey come calling, who are you gonna wrestle for? 99% will say "Princeton"

Well like you said Dake “has no Olympic hardware.”

In Dake’s first couple years if he ever becomes a HC, I’m not sure if recruiting will be that easy.  Did Cael get the types of recruits he’s getting now in his first couple years at ISU?

If we’re talking a couple years down the road and hypotheticals with Grey as the Cornell HC, he’ll likely also have Yianni as an assistant.

Dake will definitely get all the guys who want to be national champion complainers though. 

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1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

Well like you said Dake “has no Olympic hardware.”

In Dake’s first couple years if he ever becomes a HC, I’m not sure if recruiting will be that easy.  Did Cael get the types of recruits he’s getting now in his first couple years at ISU?

If we’re talking a couple years down the road and hypotheticals with Grey as the Cornell HC, he’ll likely also have Yianni as an assistant.

Dake will definitely get all the guys who want to be national champion complainers though. 

Dake may not have any Olympic hardware, but he's got a World Championship. Kids look up to that.

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No way I'd make a guy whose highest finish on the podium in NCAA was 8th the HC of a major program right out the gates. He probably wouldn't even have the wrestling chops of several members of the team if he coached at a tough wrestling school.

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7 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

Do you think at Ohio State Jaggers knows more than Ryan? Would you say they are about the same?  I am not a wrestling historian, but Jaggers has 2 titles. I"m not sure about international experience.  I don't think Tom Ryan ever won an NCAA title.  If you think Jaggers knows a lot more than Ryan, could that potentially be the same with Sonnen. 

In jest... who is Tom Ryan?  Who is Jaggers?  Those guys were not household names across the USA.  Sonnen might have a career like Ryan.  One that takes years to become top tier.  IMO, both Ryan and Jaggers have more wrestling pull than Sonnen would for some time.  

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3 hours ago, portajohn said:

Wrestling is the only sport I can think of where success as a participant correlates to success as a coach.  The next great college coach will come with a lot of personal hardware. 

Depends on what level you are coaching. I had a former coach who never even started in HS, he was a backup behind a perennial State Champ. The guy was a pretty knowledgeable coach actually, and went on to win several state team titles at a 1A school near Tulsa. College is different because of recruiting, obviously. Got to have chops the kids can appreciate, or at least a personality they really like. Who wants to wrestle for some bossy, angry prick all the time?

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38 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

No way I'd make a guy whose highest finish on the podium in NCAA was 8th the HC of a major program right out the gates. He probably wouldn't even have the wrestling chops of several members of the team if he coached at a tough wrestling school.

Right out of the gate?  He’s been a coach at Cornell for 9 years or something.  Yianni credits him all the time and I think guys like Vito and Garrett have as well.  

Maybe he didn’t have as great of a college career as expected, but he was still an AA and he’s basically a legend in NJ having been the first 4x’er ever.

Edit: That said I do think he’d be a good HC (similar to Koll), but I don’t think he could be the “next Cael.”

Edited by 1032004

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29 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

I could see Chael being the best salesman.  But he's not the best wrestler.  Could he hire top-notch assistance that are high level?  For example,  what if Sonnen took over over a job and had Ringer as an assistant.  Would you buy that?

Expertise in wrestling does not guarantee that one is good at helping others learn it.  Expertise can hurt teaching when the expert forgets what is easy and what is difficult for students.  Several new coaches struggle to work with high school freshmen that lack the wrestling vocabulary.  The same is true for successful wrestlers that start teaching youth novice.  The coach demonstrates a move and says what to do.  The kids are told to drill and none do it correctly.  The coach must build the vocabulary and experience, step by step, correction by correction, to raise the base knowledge required for future basic instruction.

Another problem coaches have is a refusal to teach how to respond when things go south.  I know new coaches that refuse to teach how to get off one's back because one should never get on their back in the first place.  This is unacceptable and perpetual problem that coaches need to correct.  Time and time again, I am wowed by the lack of strategic fight to escape the pin in college and senior wrestling matches.

Can Chael explain what, how, and why he does the moves in minutia?  If yes, that is good.  Next he would need to coach his first all-american and follow up with several annual all-americans to gain a reputation as a solid coach.  Then the success would self-sustain future recruiting.  Ringer is an okay pull.  He has had great success by most measures, but he has not won world titles.  The best HS wrestlers will want to go to where the most successful programs and/or coaches are.  Today, that is not a potential Chael or Ringer.  

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1 hour ago, headshuck said:

Seems like Burroughs, Dake, Snyder, Cox, Taylor, etc. could all benefit from a few years as a top assistant coach to determine what their skills and interests are before offering them a head coaching position. Maybe Terry Brands can open an academy?

He's never been a HC, what could he teach them? Unless he and Tom have been swapping out and not telling anybody.

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3 hours ago, TobusRex said:

No way I'd make a guy whose highest finish on the podium in NCAA was 8th the HC of a major program right out the gates. He probably wouldn't even have the wrestling chops of several members of the team if he coached at a tough wrestling school.

He placed higher then 8th twice 

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34 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

He's never been a HC, what could he teach them? Unless he and Tom have been swapping out and not telling anybody.

he was the head coach at Tennessee-Chattanooga for 3 years and the head coach of the USA mens freestyle for 3 years...

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14 hours ago, TobusRex said:

Depends on what level you are coaching. I had a former coach who never even started in HS, he was a backup behind a perennial State Champ. The guy was a pretty knowledgeable coach actually, and went on to win several state team titles at a 1A school near Tulsa. College is different because of recruiting, obviously. Got to have chops the kids can appreciate, or at least a personality they really like. Who wants to wrestle for some bossy, angry prick all the time?

Agree on the level of coaching.  I was specifically thinking of College.  I think the #1 prerequisite for an elite college coach seems to be personal accolades followed by their ability to crate a cultish following.   

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15 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Well like you said Dake “has no Olympic hardware.”

In Dake’s first couple years if he ever becomes a HC, I’m not sure if recruiting will be that easy.  Did Cael get the types of recruits he’s getting now in his first couple years at ISU?

If we’re talking a couple years down the road and hypotheticals with Grey as the Cornell HC, he’ll likely also have Yianni as an assistant.

Dake will definitely get all the guys who want to be national champion complainers though. 

Yes, Cael had amazing recruits while at ISU, and led them to 2nd, 3rd and 5th place finishes in his 3 years there.

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2 hours ago, portajohn said:

Agree on the level of coaching.  I was specifically thinking of College.  I think the #1 prerequisite for an elite college coach seems to be personal accolades followed by their ability to crate a cultish following.   

I disagree.  It can be argued that in the last decade Ohio State has been the second best team.  Plus they have a new wrestling facility.  They did that under Tom Ryan, someone that never won the NCAA title.   I don't think you need to be the best wrestler as a coach if you have assistants like Jaggers. 

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33 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

I disagree.  It can be argued that in the last decade Ohio State has been the second best team.  Plus they have a new wrestling facility.  They did that under Tom Ryan, someone that never won the NCAA title.   I don't think you need to be the best wrestler as a coach if you have assistants like Jaggers. 

I don't think anybody here questions whether guys can be good coaches or not, per se, but their appeal in recruiting talented guys to come wrestle for them. 

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2 hours ago, Mokoma said:

Yes, Cael had amazing recruits while at ISU, and led them to 2nd, 3rd and 5th place finishes in his 3 years there.

I'm aware of his overall results.  But while his first year at PSU wasn't as good, he won a title in his 2nd year and in his 3rd year had 3 national champs.  He only had 2 total and no more than 1 per year while at ISU.

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3 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

I don't think anybody here questions whether guys can be good coaches or not, per se, but their appeal in recruiting talented guys to come wrestle for them. 

Exactly. It's actually pretty rare in the major pro sports for coaches to come from the star athlete ranks. Maybe it's b/c the stars have so much money, they don't need to coach (especially if that means starting as an assistant).

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On 2/25/2020 at 1:47 PM, Marcus Cisero said:

speaking of MMA, did anyone see Ed Ruth on Bellator Friday night.  He was totally dominated by his opponent including being taken down at will. Surprising for a 3 time NCAA wrestling champion. Perhaps he can come back but he did not look good at all.

It’s not that surprising to me. I’ve followed Ruth’s mma career very closely and knew after about 3-4 fights he was wasted potential. He became absolutely obsessed with striking and stopped training his wrestling. Pulled a Koscheck but worse. He did a couple interviews where he essentially said he loves striking and the excitement it brings and wants to be known for it in mma. His pure wrestling got rusty and his mma wrestling never progressed. 

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19 hours ago, shieldofpistis said:

I corrected my post.  I"m sorry.  Not sure why I made that mistake.  (why did the picture of the vegetable not copy)

Really good kid at my HS is named Kale, sadly he was a very light JR 087 pounder (who certainly cold make 080) as a 9th grader.

Edited by RichB

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