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shieldofpistis

Coach that could make Cael-like splash

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Because they didn't have a coach like Sanderson.

It's not just because Pennsylvania is such a hotbed of wrestling. If that was all that mattered, Pitt, Lehigh, or one of the other eleven D1 schools in Pennsylvania would be bringing home trophies.

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Penn State is much larger than Pitt, with noticeably lower acceptance requirements, Lehigh is 1/10th the size of PSU with far greater acceptance requirements.

Look at PSU recruiting Classes for 94,95,96 with NCAA hosting in 1999, and with no super injuries. Should have been a 1999 title, but did not Fritz retire in 1998

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Wherever Cael ended up would be winning titles like PSU is doing now. PSU was just the first ones to pony up what he was worth. If he'd not left ISU it would've been the Cyclones winning most of the NCAA team titles. He's the best coach by a country mile and has proven it, and I'm not even a PSU guy.

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On 2/25/2020 at 4:47 PM, portajohn said:

Wrestling is the only sport I can think of where success as a participant correlates to success as a coach.  The next great college coach will come with a lot of personal hardware. 

I thought I had an original thought here, but figured to be safe I should read through the whole thread, and, wouldn't you know, someone had this thought long ago.

The only other sports that I could think of that are like wrestling (i.e. predominantly individual, but with a team overlay) are gymnastics, swimming. And the most successful coaches in those sports were not much, if anything, as athletes. Bela Karolyi and I am not sure who else in gymnastics. Bob Bowman and Doc Councilman in swimming.

So what makes wrestling unique even among the unique sports?

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4 hours ago, shieldofpistis said:

I disagree.  It can be argued that in the last decade Ohio State has been the second best team.  Plus they have a new wrestling facility.  They did that under Tom Ryan, someone that never won the NCAA title.   I don't think you need to be the best wrestler as a coach if you have assistants like Jaggers. 

Come on man. Chael scraped in at 8th place one season in NCAAs, Ryan finished 3rd and 2nd. That's not a small gap there in achievement, that's a yawning chasm. To equivocate the two is goofy. Finishing 2nd/3rd isn't that far off winning an NCAA title, and that's not counting that Ryan literally learned coaching from the best coach in the country at the time (Gable).  Tom Ryan is a blueblood, as far as coaches go.

 

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On 2/25/2020 at 12:21 PM, shieldofpistis said:

I am not sure I have seen a coach of any sport reach nearly a decade of dominance like Cael Sanderson has done at Penn St.  In any major sport.  Penn St was talented, but Sanderson turned around a team that was not winning national titles, and now may be the first year in eight that they probably won't win it?  

 

I was thinking of another coach that might be able to do something similar for another program as Chael has done at Penn St.  And the name I have come up with as best being able to duplicate Cael's success- or the person to get the closest- would be Chael Sonnen.  

 

Chael Sonnen is a better speaker than Sanderson.  Not even close.  I imagine he would be a better salesperson to recruits and boosters.  If you have not seen Chael on the apprentice then you probably don't know how much of a shark he can be.  

 

Some may think that the the level of wrestling between Sonnen and Sanderson isn't even close.  That is fair.  Some say Sanderson may be the best American wrestler we have had.  Sonnen has post-college success, but nothing like Sanderson.  

 

However, this is the concept that some on this board will not like. MMA is much bigger than amateur wrestling.  In fact, there have been a few UFC fighters interviewed who said they wrestled in high school to prepare for the UFC.  I imagine Sonnen would be able to get a great majority of the wrestlers going into MMA after college.  That's the key.  A guy like Bo Nickal who has stated he wanted to go to MMA--- what if Sonnen recruited him? Someone that knows the MMA inside and out and wrestling inside and out?  Sonnen certainly would prepare a wrestler better for mma. He does not have an olympic gold, but he does have fighting victories over Shogun, Wanderlia, Nate M., Okami, Rampage, Bisping, Stan, and he pushed Anderson Silva, one of the greatest ever, to the limit.  There are many who would rather have his sporting accomplishments than Cael Sanderson, especially considering he has made so much more per match. 

 

There have been MMA guys who were better wrestlers than Sonnen, like Askren.  But I think Sonnen is the best one to be able to run a program.  And I know it will hurt the ears of die hard pure wrestling fans who hate MMA.  But more people- by a landslide- know Sonnen than Sanderson.  

 

I'm not saying Sonnen would be better than Sanderson.  I"m saying he is my choice for being the next closest at being able to replicate what Sanderson has done.  Who is your choice? Why?

Edit:  I think you guys are missing the point.  I admitted he wouldn't be as good as Sanderson.  But I think Sonnen has a combination of skills and talents that would make him someone that may be able to run a powerhouse program.  Sorry about mispelling Cael. 

is this the guy on MMA sometimes?

NO.

he is too volatile.

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2 hours ago, TobusRex said:

Wherever Cael ended up would be winning titles like PSU is doing now. PSU was just the first ones to pony up what he was worth. If he'd not left ISU it would've been the Cyclones winning most of the NCAA team titles.

Then why didnt he win one at ISU?

Its not like he took over a struggling program at ISU. 

Edited by russelscout

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1 hour ago, russelscout said:

Then why didnt he win one at ISU?

Its not like he took over a struggling program at ISU. 

Because he was building his program. He would have gotten much of that same initial core that started with Taylor, that would have led to many of (probably not all) of the recruits he brought to Penn State. He still would have had Cody, Cunningham, and Varner. He maybe doesn’t win 8 of 9, and nobody can say anything with certainty because it’s always an “if”, but there is certainly enough evidence to have pretty good confidence that it’s the HC, the staff, and the system that’s more responsible for the success, more so than the campus on which they’re located. As someone said above, Penn State did the wise thing and ponied up. 

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7 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Because he was building his program. He would have gotten much of that same initial core that started with Taylor, that would have led to many of (probably not all) of the recruits he brought to Penn State. He still would have had Cody, Cunningham, and Varner. He maybe doesn’t win 8 of 9, and nobody can say anything with certainty because it’s always an “if”, but there is certainly enough evidence to have pretty good confidence that it’s the HC, the staff, and the system that’s more responsible for the success, more so than the campus on which they’re located. As someone said above, Penn State did the wise thing and ponied up. 

He would have had Taylor, but would he have gotten the Altons, Molinero, Ruth, Wright to come out to Iowa?

Cael is a great coach no doubt, but he didnt spin a globe put down his finger and it happened to land on PSU. There is a reason he want there.

I honestly dont know how you could assume it would have worked out the same way at ISU simply because the optics are that ISU is Iowas lil brother. There is a recruiting disadvantage that comes a long with that. 

 

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1 minute ago, russelscout said:

He would have had Taylor, but would he have gotten the Altons, Molinero, Ruth, Wright to come out to Iowa?

Cael is a great coach no doubt, but he didnt spin a globe put down his finger and it happened to land on PSU. There is a reason he want there.

I honestly dont know how you could assume it would have worked out the same way at ISU simply because the optics are that ISU is Iowas lil brother. There is a recruiting disadvantage that comes a long with that. 

 

Maybe I’m wrong but weren’t molinaro and Wright already there plus Ruth committed.

Hard to imagine any of those three who were  at PSU before he was leaving to go to ISU.  

I agree he wins titles at ISU but definitely not the same dominance.

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5 hours ago, TobusRex said:

Wherever Cael ended up would be winning titles like PSU is doing now. PSU was just the first ones to pony up what he was worth. If he'd not left ISU it would've been the Cyclones winning most of the NCAA team titles. He's the best coach by a country mile and has proven it, and I'm not even a PSU guy.

Agreed.

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8 hours ago, TobusRex said:

I think he was on the cusp of winning at ISU. PSU just made it easier.

Oh he would have won some, but if he stays at ISU, OSU and tOSU likely have 1 or two more. Maybe Iowa but they kind of fell off in recruiting the last decade.

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9 hours ago, russelscout said:

 

9 hours ago, russelscout said:

He would have had Taylor, but would he have gotten the Altons, Molinero, Ruth, Wright to come out to Iowa?

Cael is a great coach no doubt, but he didnt spin a globe put down his finger and it happened to land on PSU. There is a reason he want there.

I honestly dont know how you could assume it would have worked out the same way at ISU simply because the optics are that ISU is Iowas lil brother. There is a recruiting disadvantage that comes a long with that. 

 

Please read and try to stay with what I actually said if you want to have the conversation  I said maybe doesn’t win 8 of 9, (which was to say probably doesn’t, I could have worded that differenty), I said probably doesn’t get all the recruits, and I said nobody knows because it’s all a big if. So that’s hardly me “assuming it would have worked out the same”. 
 

What I also said  is that there is plenty of evidence that the HC, coaching staff, and system in place are more responsible to his success that the campus they are on. And there is. Of course he didn’t “spin a globe” (come on man let’s have a real chat for once) but to point out some of that evidence I was referring to....if it was more about the campus than the HC, staff, and system...why have they won 8 in his ten years there when they hadn’t won one since 1953? 
 

You are correct that ISU is behind Iowa. That wasn’t always the case. What did it take for Iowa to take over? A dominant nearly undefeated NCAA athlete who went on to win Olympic gold to come in and develop a system of coaching and recruiting that would allow him to recruit anywhere in the country he wanted to, and work those recruits into multiple NCAA championships and go on to have success on the Senior Circuit. Sound familiar? He already had ISU on the uptrend, I’d have to go back to confirm but I think even finished ahead of Iowa a couple times already  

As I said, there’s plenty of evidence it’s the HC, staff and system more so than the campus. I don’t think they win 8 of 9, but I think they win more over the last ten years than anyone else. 

Edited by Lurker

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20 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Oh he would have won some, but if he stays at ISU, OSU and tOSU likely have 1 or two more. Maybe Iowa but they kind of fell off in recruiting the last decade.

I'm not saying he'd have been as dominant as he'd have been at PSU, but maybe 5 of the last ten? Oh yeah, I could see that. 

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20 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Please read and try to stay with what I actually said if you want to have the conversation  I said maybe doesn’t win 8 of 9, (which was to say probably doesn’t, I could have worded that differenty), I said probably doesn’t get all the recruits, and I said nobody knows because it’s all a big if. So that’s hardly me “assuming it would have worked out the same”. 
 

What I also said  is that there is plenty of evidence that the HC, coaching staff, and system in place are more responsible to his success that the campus they are on. And there is. Of course he didn’t “spin a globe” (come on man let’s have a real chat for once) but to point out some of that evidence I was referring to....if it was more about the campus than the HC, staff, and system...why have they won 8 in his ten years there when they hadn’t won one since 1953? 
 

You are correct that ISU is behind Iowa. That wasn’t always the case. What did it take for Iowa to take over? A dominant nearly undefeated NCAA athlete who went on to win Olympic gold to come in and develop a system of coaching and recruiting that would allow him to recruit anywhere in the country he wanted to, and work those recruits into multiple NCAA championships and go on to have success on the Senior Circuit. Sound familiar? He already had ISU on the uptrend, I’d have to go back to confirm but I think even finished ahead of Iowa a couple times already  

As I said, there’s plenty of evidence it’s the HC, staff and system more so than the campus. I don’t think they win 8 of 9, but I think they win more over the last ten years than anyone else. 

Yeah, I agree. I was more responding to the tone of the thread. Probably shouldnt have quoted you.

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12 hours ago, moose41 said:

Maybe I’m wrong but weren’t molinaro and Wright already there plus Ruth committed.

Hard to imagine any of those three who were  at PSU before he was leaving to go to ISU.  

I agree he wins titles at ISU but definitely not the same dominance.

Wright is a local boy who was probably going to Penn State regardless of who was there. I'm fairly certain Ruth was committed before Cael even got the job. Molinaro was already at Penn State when Cael came in. Frank graduated HS in 2007.

The Altons...who knows. 

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3 hours ago, TobusRex said:

I'm not saying he'd have been as dominant as he'd have been at PSU, but maybe 5 of the last ten? Oh yeah, I could see that. 

5 seems generous considering he doesn’t get the benefit of three national champs who were already in the stable before he shows up.  Probly also tough to pull other local PA hammers Retherford, and Nolf to ISU.   

With Rob Koll is the other possible choice he’s also a current top 5 coach and keeps those guys home with the benefit of the NLWC.

i think Sanderson and company win a few at ISU but not 5.  Just my opinion. Maybe two or three.

Edited by moose41

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11 hours ago, Mokoma said:

Agreed.

Disagree... he would have had a hard time recruiting against Iowa at ISU. His name brand geography and coaching skills have brought the success at PSU that wouldn't have been matched going head to head with Iowa for recruits. maybe a title or 2.

Edited by Sublime607

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