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jross

When have referees dictated match outcomes?

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In conversation, my wife brought up false memories and the impact it can have.  I have one.

I am undefeated and confident at the league championship.  I am wrestling an opponent that I have beaten three times.  I secure a TD in the first period and cut him loose.  I score an escape in the second period.  The opponent has not taken a shot and is defending my attacks well.  In the third period, I am trying to turn the opponent but he is clamming up and refusing to make a move.  With 15 seconds left, the referee calls me for stalling.  I cut him loose and we are in neutral.  Within 5 seconds, the referee blow his whistle as I am taking a shot.  Stalling is called against me again and 1pt is awarded to the opponent.  Now the match is tied 3-3 and we go into overtime.  I am bewildered because this is the first stall calls against me that season.  I am not worried.  This kid has never taken me down.  I tapped the top of his head and get a clean double-leg TD.  The referee blows the whistle.  After the match, I run up the stands and the crowd is saying "sorry man, that was a tough one."  I'm happy and say "yeah can't believe it."  At the award ceremony, I stepped onto the first place podium position to accept the glory.  Then it hits me, why did the announce say '"runner up."  Surely that was a mistake.  Why is this guy looking at me funny?  I remember winning.  I remember getting my hand raised.  I stepped down into second place with a confused frown on my face.  Later, I watched the video and discovered that I was penalized 1pt for pulling headgear in overtime.  The referee raised the other opponent's hand.  I had lost.  In the stands, people were saying sorry for my loss.  I thought they meant sorry for the bad refereeing that sent me into overtime.  In my head, I had won.  The video says the truth.  My memory says I won.  

The video confirms that I did not pull on the opponents headgear.  Nor was I stalling.  Yes I should have scored more but I assure you, with an 'always score' mentality, I was constantly attacking in the match.  The referee dictated the match outcome.  

What time has a referee influenced your match outcome?  What is the worst referee job you have seen in a college match?  Aside.  What false memory do you have and what was the impact?

Edited by jross

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I’m probably about to get this board in a frenzy, but I still think Hidlay took down Nolf. I won’t say it directly affected the outcome of the match, because Nolf would’ve wrestled differently. But it was a huge call. 
 

And then one of the biggest ones of recent memory: the no takedown for Jordan Oliver against Steiber. That one was so bad that they modified the rules so it didn’t happen again. 

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I got jobbed to benefit the same guy twice in HS wrestling. Had his shoulder blades FLAT on the mat for about 30 seconds and the referee pretended he didn't see in the finals of a big tourney. Then ran into the same guy at State and he beat me 3-1 off 2 questionable penalty points. He took NO shots at all in the match and didn't get dinged or anything. 

Non-personal the biggest screwjob I've seen benefited Logan Steiber vs Oliver. That referee should'be been dragged out, tarred and feathered. Further, he should've received a lifetime ban at NCAAs/ 

Edited by TobusRex

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6 minutes ago, goheels1812 said:

I’m probably about to get this board in a frenzy, but I still think Hidlay took down Nolf. I won’t say it directly affected the outcome of the match, because Nolf would’ve wrestled differently. But it was a huge call. 
 

And then one of the biggest ones of recent memory: the no takedown for Jordan Oliver against Steiber. That one was so bad that they modified the rules so it didn’t happen again. 

I concur on both

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10 minutes ago, goheels1812 said:

I’m probably about to get this board in a frenzy, but I still think Hidlay took down Nolf. I won’t say it directly affected the outcome of the match, because Nolf would’ve wrestled differently. But it was a huge call. 
 

And then one of the biggest ones of recent memory: the no takedown for Jordan Oliver against Steiber. That one was so bad that they modified the rules so it didn’t happen again. 

OH yeah, forgot that one. Yeah, Hidlay got jobbed. I still think Nolf would've won, but Hidlay definitely got screwed. 

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Hidlay did not take Nolf down,  but the ref the ref that called my kid for stalling in an NCAA TB-2(or 1?) and then didn't call his opponent in the very next period for the very same thing ought to be be ashamed of himself.

With respect to Nolf, that was a fantastic call. Nolf had no more than one point of contact on the ground.  The fact that the ref notices that is remarkable. 

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43 minutes ago, jross said:

In conversation, my wife brought up false memories and the impact it can have.  I have one.

I am undefeated and confident at the league championship.  I am wrestling an opponent that I have beaten three times.  I secure a TD in the first period and cut him loose.  I score an escape in the second period.  The opponent has not taken a shot and is defending my attacks well.  In the third period, I am trying to turn the opponent but he is clamming up and refusing to make a move.  With 15 seconds left, the referee calls me for stalling.  I cut him loose and we are in neutral.  Within 5 seconds, the referee blow his whistle as I am taking a shot.  Stalling is called against me again and 1pt is awarded to the opponent.

The ref didn't dictate your match outcome.  

So you were up 3-1 in the 3rd period and had no stall warnings prior to there being 15 seconds left?   All you had to do was ride him and even if he hit you again in the last 15 seconds you'd have still won 3-2.   If you got called for stalling 3 times in 15 seconds then yeah that'd be dictating the match outcome.

But if this story is true, the worst call he made was blowing the whistle for stalling while in neutral...

Edited by 1032004

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6 minutes ago, MedicineMan said:

ncaaryanA

                                             (photo by fadzaev2)

THIS.  Combined with other atrocious calls in the match.  Hence the term:  "Kesselled"

But this wasn't a pin. Note how high up his right arm was. The tds were another story.

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1 minute ago, Plasmodium said:

Scapula.  He looks stuck to me. Of course, a picture doesn't tell ta story of time.

True. What's the rule now? When I was wrestling it was "touch pin", basically. Any more than a split second. Now don't they have to hold it for a couple seconds? 

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1 minute ago, Plasmodium said:

Scapula.  He looks stuck to me. Of course, a picture doesn't tell ta story of time.

Tell me you can see the scapula. His right shoulder appears to be resting on Churella. And he's leaning towards his left. You can see  a small gap under the right butt cheek that Kessel is looking through. So how can anyone at this angle say they can see? You don't think Kessel can see it .

I know most people want to keep this Kesseling thing going but let's keep it where it belongs at least- the out of bounds takedown calls. 

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I'll grant you I'm deducing it based on my experience with anatomy over the course of my 24+ years of life. :)  I don't see how it couldn't be on the mat.  Also, since MM posted that picture there is good chance he photoshopped his shoulder up there just to bolster your argument!

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1 hour ago, goheels1812 said:

I’m probably about to get this board in a frenzy, but I still think Hidlay took down Nolf. I won’t say it directly affected the outcome of the match, because Nolf would’ve wrestled differently. But it was a huge call. 
 

And then one of the biggest ones of recent memory: the no takedown for Jordan Oliver against Steiber. That one was so bad that they modified the rules so it didn’t happen again. 

I heard Nolf being interviewed about that and he basically said he wished they’d have given Hidley the takedown so he would have opened up and tried to score more.

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41 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Hidlay did not take Nolf down,  but the ref the ref that called my kid for stalling in an NCAA TB-2(or 1?) and then didn't call his opponent in the very next period for the very same thing ought to be be ashamed of himself.

With respect to Nolf, that was a fantastic call. Nolf had no more than one point of contact on the ground.  The fact that the ref notices that is remarkable. 

Agreed and argued that in here to ad nauseam.  Nolf lifting his foot up right before his hand touched the mat was probably one of the more amazing things he did in his college career. 

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I can't think of a worse example than that Churella-Hendricks match. No pin, only two near fall on that cradle (should have been three based on the clock) and a couple bad takedown calls in the third - none worse than the one out of bounds with Churella facing in. An additional problem is that Kessell made sooo many bad calls that it clearly started to affect and fluster Churella, who then lost on a last-second takedown. Kessell was actually barred from reffing the NCAA Championships the following year.

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45 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

The ref didn't dictate your match outcome.  

Killjoy.  The ref decided to warn and penalize the active wrestler for stalling.  The passive opponent was not warned for stalling.  The first time we wrestled, the opponent was active.  I scored several TDs and NF in the first match.  By the fourth time we wrestled, he was the doppelganger of a clam.  Our fifth match at regionals went much of the same way except I was not called for stalling while earning two TDs and one escape versus his two escapes.

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5 minutes ago, jross said:

Killjoy.  The ref decided to warn and penalize the active wrestler for stalling.  The passive opponent was not warned for stalling.  The first time we wrestled, the opponent was active.  I scored several TDs and NF in the first match.  By the fourth time we wrestled, he was the doppelganger of a clam.  Our fifth match at regionals went much of the same way except I was not called for stalling while earning two TDs and one escape versus his two escapes.

That doesn't answer the question of why cut him with a 2-point lead and 15 seconds left.   Not smart wrestling IMO, as even without another stall call you'd lose if you gave up a takedown.

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4 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

That doesn't answer the question of why cut him with a 2-point lead and 15 seconds left.   Not smart wrestling IMO, as even without another stall call you'd lose if you gave up a takedown.

I qualified for the state tournament my senior year because a kid didn’t cut me. I was down 2 with 25 seconds left and the kid was quite literally begging his coach to go neutral. I was good on bottom and the kid knew that. The coach told him no finish on top. I hit a Peterson with about 10 seconds left and the rest is history. If he would’ve cut me there’s a next to 0 chance I would take him down to win (he was superior on feet). 

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52 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

So you were up 3-1 in the 3rd period and had no stall warnings prior to there being 15 seconds left?   All you had to do was ride him and even if he hit you again in the last 15 seconds you'd have still won 3-2. 

Easier said than done.  The opponent had reversed me in a prior match and was now given a fresh restart.  I had been called for top-man stalling while being aggressive on attempts to score.  I expected the ref to ding me again and did not want to chance a last second reversal.  I was confident in my neutral scoring options to finish the match.

In hindsight, I should have tried to ride him out.  I made the the best decision possible with the previous experience and coaching I had.

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13 minutes ago, goheels1812 said:

I qualified for the state tournament my senior year because a kid didn’t cut me. I was down 2 with 25 seconds left and the kid was quite literally begging his coach to go neutral. I was good on bottom and the kid knew that. The coach told him no finish on top. I hit a Peterson with about 10 seconds left and the rest is history. If he would’ve cut me there’s a next to 0 chance I would take him down to win (he was superior on feet). 

This ^^^

In an early season match, I was down by one point with a restart with 10 seconds left in the third period.  I hit a standing switch for a 2pt reversal and won.  Later in a state semi-finals match, I was down by one point with 30 seconds left in the third period.  On a restart, I hit a standing switch and reversed my opponent directly to his back. 

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2 minutes ago, jross said:

This ^^^

In an early season match, I was down by one point with a restart with 10 seconds left in the third period.  I hit a standing switch for a 2pt reversal and won.  Later in a state semi-finals match, I was down by one point with 30 seconds left in the third period.  On a restart, I hit a standing switch and reversed my opponent directly to his back. 

Sounds like we were the same wrestler haha. I hit many standing switches in my day. I was never amazing on my feet, but I excelled at mat wrestling. Going neutral against me would’ve been smart. The other kid knew that but his coaches didn’t. 

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