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irani

Women wrestling, my very controversial opinion

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My state finally had their first girls state championship last year and i could not be happier. That being said, I had to wrestle girls while in high school (mostly at camps and out of state tournaments) and I absolutely destroyed every one of them. It was especially brutal if they caught me at a time when I needed to sweat a lot to make weight, or at a camp where they just made you keep wrestling for a certain amount of time, even if you pinned them in 5 seconds. My coach was from Iowa so he taught us to be brutal on the mat. I never did anything illegal but if you chose to step on the mat with me then It was not going to be pleasant.
With all of that being said, I hated wrestling girls. It was awkward. I would not allow my daughter, should I have one some day, to wrestle boys...not even in the practice room. I ask if anyone who is for wrestling boys, have you ever had to wrestle a girl in high school? I recall the kid from one of the Carolina’s who was one of the best in the state forfeiting the first round for religious reasons. So before you say something about Iran not wrestling women, you may want to look in your own back yard at a Christian, Jewish, Catholic, Muslim, etc...and take that into account.
I’m not going to get into this, but screw title IX. And John Smith said it best: “Its a mans sport”.

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6 hours ago, RajaThaiKnee said:

My state finally had their first girls state championship last year and i could not be happier. That being said, I had to wrestle girls while in high school (mostly at camps and out of state tournaments) and I absolutely destroyed every one of them. It was especially brutal if they caught me at a time when I needed to sweat a lot to make weight, or at a camp where they just made you keep wrestling for a certain amount of time, even if you pinned them in 5 seconds. My coach was from Iowa so he taught us to be brutal on the mat. I never did anything illegal but if you chose to step on the mat with me then It was not going to be pleasant.
With all of that being said, I hated wrestling girls. It was awkward. I would not allow my daughter, should I have one some day, to wrestle boys...not even in the practice room. I ask if anyone who is for wrestling boys, have you ever had to wrestle a girl in high school? I recall the kid from one of the Carolina’s who was one of the best in the state forfeiting the first round for religious reasons. So before you say something about Iran not wrestling women, you may want to look in your own back yard at a Christian, Jewish, Catholic, Muslim, etc...and take that into account.
I’m not going to get into this, but screw title IX. And John Smith said it best: “Its a mans sport”.

Absolutely none of what you said is related to Title IX. Maybe you should look it up before you address it. 

This is what you are saying here: You are happy that there is a girls state championship because you had to wrestle a girl once and it was awkward. Also something about religion and Iran and how some guys refuse to wrestle women. From that you would think you'd be a huge proponent for women's wrestling where they compete with each other. However you conclude by saying it's a mans sport. 

Maybe you want to rethink this whole post. I would love to disagree with you, but at this point your argument is so poorly structured that I can't see your point. Are you happy about a women's state title? You think its a mans sport? What are you actually trying to say?

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On 2/27/2020 at 1:52 PM, irani said:

For the first time, a female wrestler won a state championship.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/26/us/first-female-wrestler-state-champ-trnd/index.html?fbclid=IwAR3Zz0B57rJKTQOG7NrzYqJF59igvdS1ZXBIjVmDkDfY3xZrH-2w7Wp_SrQ

Now here is my very controversial opinion:

Make Wrestling a Co-ed sport!

  • I am aware the men will have an advantage in strength and quickness even when they weight the same as women
  • I believe the physical strength is not overwhelming and as evidence by this young woman, it can be overcome by better skills, cardio and mental toughness
  • I am also aware that this would mean that countries like Iran would forfeit matches against women, but that is their problem
  • I expect that women may be competitive in the very lighter weights (50 kg) and non existent in the super heavy weights
  • I expect men to dominate, but some women will be competitive, as demonstrated by this young woman

No way adult women will ever be able to compete with an adult man in elite levels of wrestling.

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On 2/28/2020 at 8:45 AM, 1032004 said:

I mean when Maroulis won the Olympics I think there was a thread on here claiming she’d get beat by above average high school kids.  I wouldn’t go that far, but against the best in the country/world?  Doubt it.

I don't think she beats the top high school boys. Men have too much of an upper body strength advantage, especially in the forearms and hands. 

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On 2/28/2020 at 9:59 AM, irani said:

When you disagree with someone, there is not a need to insult them

30 years ago,  I was dead against girls wrestling boys in High School.  I said girls would be injured, they wouldn't stand a chance, only a sadist would want to see this.

Based on the few girls who have won state championships at the high school, I was proven wrong.

I will admit this seems to happen only at the lightest weights, presumably because the  muscle mass difference is not significant, but it has happened, I was wrong!

I believe some day, there may be a woman who is the best wrestler in the 100 lb division, if they had such a weight in Freestyle

This whole discussion is hypothetical anyway, since even if the US agreed to is, I doubt UWW would ever allow it.

I have said all I am going to say, apparently most of you disagree, I respect your opinions.

 

I have seen several girls do well against boys at 106. Less at 113. Almost never at 119. The boys at the lowest weights are likely prepubescent and its really the only time where women can compete with the strength of the boys.

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10 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I have seen several girls do well against boys at 106. Less at 113. Almost never at 119. The boys at the lowest weights are likely prepubescent and its really the only time where women can compete with the strength of the boys.

a friends daughter wrestled at 26s this season... she was 15-3 against the boys...

some of you vastly over value the average HS wrestler...

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4 minutes ago, LJB said:

a friends daughter wrestled at 26s this season... she was 15-3 against the boys...

some of you vastly over value the average HS wrestler...

I am not talking about average HS. When I was saying "do well against the boys" I was thinking specifically what I have seen at the state tournament. Sorry for not clarifying that.

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3 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I am not talking about average HS. When I was saying "do well against the boys" I was thinking specifically what I have seen at the state tournament. Sorry for not clarifying that.

fair

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37 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I don't think she beats the top high school boys. Men have too much of an upper body strength advantage, especially in the forearms and hands. 

Against the top (state placer, maybe qualifier level in a good state), I agree.    Pretty sure someone claimed she wouldn't beat "above average" HS boys.

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Does anyone know how many times Patricia Miranda wrestled men while at Stanford?

I know she wrestlers 48 Kg or 51 Kg at the women's division, and had to wrestle a higher weight when wrestling men since the lowest men division is above he weight.

Edited by irani

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2 hours ago, russelscout said:

No way adult women will ever be able to compete with an adult man in elite levels of wrestling.

Patricia Miranda, defeated a male wrestler while at Stanford.  Presumably the person she defeated was not very good, and not at the elite level, but whoever he was, he was good enough to make a division 1 NCAA team.

What makes it more amazing to me, is that Miranda wrestled t 48 Kg (106 lbs) or 51 Kg (112 lbs) while competing in women's competitions. The lowest weight at the men's division was 125 lb, so she defeated a man at 125 lb.  So she had to compete against men who were bigger than her

If they had a men's weight of 106 lbs could Miranda compete with the elite male wrestlers?  

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6 minutes ago, irani said:

Patricia Miranda, defeated a male wrestler while at Stanford.  Presumably the person she defeated was not very good, and not at the elite level, but whoever he was, he was good enough to make a division 1 NCAA team.

What tournament was this? Opens allow non- D1 athletes and depending on the tournament it could be anyone from Club Level, to NAIA, to some guy who showed up and wanted to wrestle.

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17 minutes ago, irani said:

Patricia Miranda, defeated a male wrestler while at Stanford.  Presumably the person she defeated was not very good, and not at the elite level, but whoever he was, he was good enough to make a division 1 NCAA team.

What makes it more amazing to me, is that Miranda wrestled t 48 Kg (106 lbs) or 51 Kg (112 lbs) while competing in women's competitions. The lowest weight at the men's division was 125 lb, so she defeated a man at 125 lb.  So she had to compete against men who were bigger than her

If they had a men's weight of 106 lbs could Miranda compete with the elite male wrestlers?  

who is to say that the male she beat was a true 25lber?

and good enough to make a D1 team really does not mean anything... there are some awful wrestlers who are on D1 teams... 

there is no woman who can "compete" with an elite male wrestler... it just will not happen... 

this is not a condemnation on women wrestlers... 

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10 minutes ago, russelscout said:

What tournament was this? Opens allow non- D1 athletes and depending on the tournament it could be anyone from Club Level, to NAIA, to some guy who showed up and wanted to wrestle.

I wish I knew.  

From her wiki page During her senior year, Miranda became only the second woman in NCAA history to beat a male opponent in competition and the first in more than a decade to do so at the time. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricia_Miranda

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1 minute ago, LJB said:

who is to say that the male she beat was a true 25lber?

and good enough to make a D1 team really does not mean anything... there are some awful wrestlers who are on D1 teams... 

 

Of course, we don't know the answer to the above.  I wish someone who knows the history would shed some light on the subject

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11 minutes ago, irani said:

Of course, we don't know the answer to the above.  I wish someone who knows the history would shed some light on the subject

good luck trying to find any info... we could hardly even watch wrestling in this country before the last decade...

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1 minute ago, LJB said:

good luck trying to find any info... we could hardly even watch wrestling in this country before the last decade...

I am painfully aware of lack of information and reporting on wrestling in the US.  But, I am hopeful that perhaps a Stanford team mate, or a stanford fan, or the cousin of the guy who lost to her will enlighten us

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1 hour ago, irani said:

Does anyone know how many times Patricia Miranda wrestled men while at Stanford?

I know she wrestlers 48 Kg or 51 Kg at the women's division, and had to wrestle a higher weight when wrestling men since the lowest men division is above he weight.

I want to say fewer than 10 matches. Idk what the story was with Stanford’s lineup or what the competitive landscape was like at the time. I believe WFS made its Olympic debut while she was in college so she did the OTC thing I think and trained in freestyle full-time.

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33 minutes ago, russelscout said:

What tournament was this? Opens allow non- D1 athletes and depending on the tournament it could be anyone from Club Level, to NAIA, to some guy who showed up and wanted to wrestle.

Wasn’t it a JC guy? It’s a detail I dislike because it can diminish the accomplishment, but that’s what I remember ppl here saying way back when.

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34 minutes ago, pamela said:

Wasn’t it a JC guy? It’s a detail I dislike because it can diminish the accomplishment, but that’s what I remember ppl here saying way back when.

Who you beat should be relevant though. I remember when Michaela Hutchinson beat a few guys in NAIA while she was at Oklahoma City, but Michaela also was never really the force on the international stage that an Ali Ragan, Helen Maroulis or so many others became. I am sure in their careers Michaela probably beat more men. She is one of the few state champs or girls who beat boys in college, but what are we trying to take from this? I saw her wrestle at an open and get teched on the backside of a small time open tourney. Simply being able to beat a guy no matter how good he is seems like a weird thing to call an accomplishment.

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1 hour ago, russelscout said:

Who you beat should be relevant though. I remember when Michaela Hutchinson beat a few guys in NAIA while she was at Oklahoma City, but Michaela also was never really the force on the international stage that an Ali Ragan, Helen Maroulis or so many others became. I am sure in their careers Michaela probably beat more men. She is one of the few state champs or girls who beat boys in college, but what are we trying to take from this? I saw her wrestle at an open and get teched on the backside of a small time open tourney. Simply being able to beat a guy no matter how good he is seems like a weird thing to call an accomplishment.

According to Wiki, her win against a male opponent was only the second in NCAA history, and the first one in a decade, so at least at the time it happened, it was not a common occurrence.

I agree that quality of the opponent matters.  I think we can assume it was not anyone famous or highly ranked,  otherwise it would have been bigger news.

I think it's impressive for any 110 pounder to compete at the 125 lb level, and add the gender to it, and it becomes even more impressive

Edited by irani

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Why have the posts in this thread degenerated into discussing whether or not a female wrestler defeated a male wrestler? Instead of vehemently disagreeing with the ridiculous premise of the OP, that woman cannot and should not wrestle? Women wrestle other women.

Yes, usually males are stronger than females of the same weight. Most people learn that by the age of 10. For those stressing that point--brilliant discovery.

Yes, usually male wrestlers are stronger than female wrestlers of the same weight. I repeat--brilliant discovery.

And male soccer players are stronger than female soccer players: women should not play soccer.

Male runners, jumpers and throwers are stronger than women runners, jumpers and throwers. Women should not do track & field.

Male golfers, tennis players, hockey players, swimmers, skiers, boxers, martial artists, weightlifters, kayakers, gymnasts, archers, volleyball players, basketball players, skateboarders, surfers, mountain climbers, cyclists, equestrians, triathletes, figure skaters, bobsledders, pool players, bowlers, shooters, lacrosse players, divers, rowers, auto racers, dart throwers and friggin' frisbee players are stronger than their female counterparts.

Women should not do any of these sports.

Oh, wait a minute. I just realized something. Should members of a culture that arrests women for  posting selfies or dancing in public be seriously listened to when they give their opinions on women in sports? Should we forget that in their culture women must hide their hair, legally obey their husbands, can't leave the country without permission of their husbands, can be arrested and jailed for holding hands with a man in public, have their testimony in court legally worth half that of a man, and in general live their entire lives as second-class citizens?

Gee, I don't think so.

So a man from Iran doesn't think that women should wrestle. I'm shocked.

 

 

Edited by fightingsioux
punctuation

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2 minutes ago, fightingsioux said:

Why have the posts in this thread degenerated into discussing whether or not a female wrestler defeated a male wrestler? Instead of vehemently disagreeing with the ridiculous premise of the OP, that woman cannot and should not wrestle? Women wrestle other women.

Yes, usually males are stronger than females of the same weight. Most people learn that by the age of 10. For those stressing that point--brilliant discovery.

Yes, usually male wrestlers are stronger than female wrestlers of the same weight. I repeat--brilliant discovery.

And male soccer players are stronger than female soccer players: women should not play soccer.

Male runners, jumpers and throwers are stronger than women runners, jumpers and throwers. Women should not do track & field.

Male golfers, tennis players, hockey players, swimmers, skiers, boxers, martial artists, weightlifters, kayakers, gymnasts, archers, volleyball players, basketball players, skateboarders, surfers, mountain climbers, cyclists, equestrians, triathletes, figure skaters, bobsledders, pool players, bowlers, shooters, lacrosse players, divers, rowers, auto racers, dart throwers and frigging frisbee players are stronger than their female counterparts.

Women should not do any of these sports.

Oh, wait a minute. I just realized something. Should members of a culture that arrests women for  posting selfies or dancing in public be seriously listened to when they give their opinions on women in sports? Should we forget that in their culture women must hide their hair, legally obey their husbands, can't leave the country without permission of their husbands, can be arrested and jailed for holding hands with a man in public, have their testimony in court legally worth half that of a man, and in general live their entire lives as second-class citizens?

Gee, I don't think so.

So a man from Iran doesn't think that women should wrestle. I'm shocked.

 

 

Can you kindly point out the sentence where you believe I wrote that women should not wrestle?

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