Jump to content
Blue Dragons

Downey (Wrestling) vs Ryan (BJJ)

Recommended Posts

51 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

So it wasn't what Gordon said would happen.  That is all.  It was exactly what I thought would happen, I agree with that.

If you watched the match, what is the point of both Downey and Nickal's strategy in the BJJ format?  Why not attempt to get the back for a RNC?  They make no effort to actually finish the match, which is what I don't understand.

 

 

I am no expert on Gordon Ryan's skill set in his sport, but I am guessing that Ryan can submit them from that position. Maybe a heel hook or something like that. I don't really know, but Ryan literally turns his back to Nickal and basically begs Nickal to take him down so why would he do that if he didn't feel he could submit him from there? 

I don't want to get into a long discussion about it, but just a hunch. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

I am no expert on Gordon Ryan's skill set in his sport, but I am guessing that Ryan can submit them from that position. Maybe a heel hook or something like that. I don't really know, but Ryan literally turns his back to Nickal and basically begs Nickal to take him down so why would he do that if he didn't feel he could submit him from there? 

I don't want to get into a long discussion about it, but just a hunch. 

But that’s my point, what’s the point of even taking the match if you aren’t going to attempt a submission?

You’d think if Gordon was giving you an advantage by giving up his back, you’d at least try, otherwise what’s the point?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a former wrestler, and middle-aged dude training both Gi and No-Gi BJJ, I love these types of matchups.  

I enjoy seeing, and demonstrating for the world, the two disciplines, and how similar, but also very different, they are. 

My BJJ black belt professor made a great analogy, and I think it applies.  

Think of the two sports in the context of "Opening a Door":

* In Wrestling, you open the door by running right through it.  

* In BJJ, you open the door by approaching the door, grabbing the handle, turning the handle, pulling the door open, then pulling it closed behind you, then locking the door, and then walking away. 

In both instances, the same basic end result was reached, but the methodology and path to get there is much different.  Downey RAN through Ryan, just like the door analogy above.  Ryan, when grappling with Downey, used techniques to get him into a worse and worse situation.  

I think this is fun to watch, compare, contrast, etc.   And yes... even the best BJJ black belts cannot go toe to toe in a wrestling match with our top wrestlers (without actual training).  Same goes in the opposite direction, as it is continuously proven over and over again. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

...

I think this is fun to watch, compare, contrast, etc.   And yes... even the best BJJ black belts cannot go toe to toe in a wrestling match with our top wrestlers (without actual training).  Same goes in the opposite direction, as it is continuously proven over and over again. 

Doe anyone here think that a top BJJ black belt could beat even an average D3 starter in wrestling match? 

Yes it is D3, but these guys do train hard every day and are focused on a specific set of skills and moves that don't really translate to BJJ,  so unless the BJJ black belt is spending a good amount of time learning folkstyle skills (which would be a huge waste for them) I see the wrestler winning.

At the same time, I would see almost any Brow Belt who is competing at a high level beating any national team member in BJJ.

I guess I am contending that NCAA D3 = BJJ Brown Belt

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Jim L said:

Doe anyone here think that a top BJJ black belt could beat even an average D3 starter in wrestling match? 

Yes it is D3, but these guys do train hard every day and are focused on a specific set of skills and moves that don't really translate to BJJ,  so unless the BJJ black belt is spending a good amount of time learning folkstyle skills (which would be a huge waste for them) I see the wrestler winning.

At the same time, I would see almost any Brow Belt who is competing at a high level beating any national team member in BJJ.

I guess I am contending that NCAA D3 = BJJ Brown Belt

 

That wouldn't be possible for the D3 guy to be a BJJ Brown belt at that age unless he were consistently training since a kid and that means that there would be 0 time to practice wrestling.

A top BJJ black belt would not be able to beat a D3 wrestler in a folkstyle or freestyle match because in order  to get to that level, they wouldn't be wrestling.  

There are always a few very rare guys that just have the knack for BJJ and can beat higher ranked guys even when they don't have the experience.  A wrestler might almost always get superior position in a wrestling point of view, but sooner or later, they're going to get off balance and mess up.  Especially no no-gi.  With a gi, forget about it. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this gets extended a bit.  

Suppose you have a D1 All-American... let's go with Desanto for sake of argument.  He clearly likes to grapple, and has shown it in wrestling matches.  LOL!

I propose that in a BJJ match, that many Blue belts would beat Desanto, easily (unless, of course, Desanto is himself a blue belt, which I don't believe he is).  

However, after Desanto graduates, if he chose to go the BJJ route, I believe he could train and elevate his skills to be that of a black belt level in a few years, and compete effectively.  (seeing him against Musumeci would be awesome).  https://www.flograppling.com/video/6668651-michael-musumeci-jr-vs-seif-eddine-houmine-2020-european-jiu-jitsu-ibjjf-championship   

Now... on the flip side.  I'm a middle aged, former wrestler, and hadn't been on the mat in 20 years.  I started training BJJ about a year ago.  I attend a highly regarded school.  Granted, we don't do a "ton" of work from our feet, but I have yet to be taken down by anyone that I've rolled with, all the way up through the Brown belts.  (yes... i'm still a newb, and should be getting my blue belt soon!).  What i'm saying is this... in a wrestling match, I'm 20 years removed and can still "out wrestle" the higher level (and much younger) belts at my school.   Where the wrestling stops and the BJJ takes over is where my mind gets blown... lol!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, treep2000 said:

I think this gets extended a bit.  

Suppose you have a D1 All-American... let's go with Desanto for sake of argument.  He clearly likes to grapple, and has shown it in wrestling matches.  LOL!

I propose that in a BJJ match, that many Blue belts would beat Desanto, easily (unless, of course, Desanto is himself a blue belt, which I don't believe he is).  

However, after Desanto graduates, if he chose to go the BJJ route, I believe he could train and elevate his skills to be that of a black belt level in a few years, and compete effectively.  (seeing him against Musumeci would be awesome).  https://www.flograppling.com/video/6668651-michael-musumeci-jr-vs-seif-eddine-houmine-2020-european-jiu-jitsu-ibjjf-championship   

Now... on the flip side.  I'm a middle aged, former wrestler, and hadn't been on the mat in 20 years.  I started training BJJ about a year ago.  I attend a highly regarded school.  Granted, we don't do a "ton" of work from our feet, but I have yet to be taken down by anyone that I've rolled with, all the way up through the Brown belts.  (yes... i'm still a newb, and should be getting my blue belt soon!).  What i'm saying is this... in a wrestling match, I'm 20 years removed and can still "out wrestle" the higher level (and much younger) belts at my school.   Where the wrestling stops and the BJJ takes over is where my mind gets blown... lol!

This is like banging your head against a wall.  Almost nobody here will understand except you, me and some others who have done both.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, CA_Wrestler said:

This is like banging your head against a wall.  Almost nobody here will understand except you, me and some others who have done both.

this could very well be true... sadly... 

What I don't like is when my wrestler brethren speak poorly of BJJ, when they hadn't attempted it themselves.  BJJ is literally the next evolution of wrestling/grappling, and begins where wrestling ends.  They are literally, the yin/yang of the grappling world.  Wrestling is for sport, but can be used in self defense.  BJJ is for self defense, and they've made a sport out of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

this could very well be true... sadly... 

What I don't like is when my wrestler brethren speak poorly of BJJ, when they hadn't attempted it themselves.  BJJ is literally the next evolution of wrestling/grappling, and begins where wrestling ends.  They are literally, the yin/yang of the grappling world.  Wrestling is for sport, but can be used in self defense.  BJJ is for self defense, and they've made a sport out of it.

So you and CA_Wrestler seem to have some experience in both.  Why would Nickal nor Downey make any attempt to win the match about Ryan with a submission?  Like what’s the point in even accepting the match?  I’m not saying either would or could, but why not go for it.  If you have no chance in the 3rd and are down big, lots of inferior wrestlers with nothing to lose go for a big move like a headlock or cement mixer (ie Rohn in national finals).  Why wouldn’t they go for a takedown, throw legs and go for a RNC? Wouldn’t it be absolutely epic if they were able to submit Ryan this way?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

So you and CA_Wrestler seem to have some experience in both.  Why would Nickal nor Downey make any attempt to win the match about Ryan with a submission?  Like what’s the point in even accepting the match?  I’m not saying either would or could, but why not go for it.  If you have no chance in the 3rd and are down big, lots of inferior wrestlers with nothing to lose go for a big move like a headlock or cement mixer (ie Rohn in national finals).  Why wouldn’t they go for a takedown, throw legs and go for a RNC? Wouldn’t it be absolutely epic if they were able to submit Ryan this way?

They aren't confident with any submission techniques, that's why they didn't really try anything.  If they tried and messed up, it could be game over. 

I don't know the exact rules  they used and if they allowed leglocks, but there were several times Gordon could have locked one up easily, so I'm guessing they didn't allow them.

For example...

If they went for a takedown, they would literally be feeding Ryan a neck, arm or leg.  With a double, you're exposing your neck almost right into a guillotine choke.  Especially with a head outside double.  With a head inside double, you're still putting yourself at risk for a guillotine (or during the transition to the mat for an armbar, some kind of armlock/some funk position) where Ryan would get a leg lock with ease.  If they went for a single, it would have to be a really fast one to the outside to go behind.  Going for a single exposes you to all kinds of stuff because if your arms are extended and only holding one leg, that means a leg is free to help with another kind of submission.

If you don't have a lot of submission grappling experience, wrestling and going for takedowns only really works against the less experienced grapplers/BJJ players that don't know how to deal with the pressure that wrestlers come with.  Once the belts start getting to brown, black or red, that stuff rarely works because there all so many different positioning tricks that you can only learn if you've been consistently on the mat in those situations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, CA_Wrestler said:

They aren't confident with any submission techniques, that's why they didn't really try anything.  If they tried and messed up, it could be game over. 

I don't know the exact rules  they used and if they allowed leglocks, but there were several times Gordon could have locked one up easily, so I'm guessing they didn't allow them.

For example...

If they went for a takedown, they would literally be feeding Ryan a neck, arm or leg.  With a double, you're exposing your neck almost right into a guillotine choke.  Especially with a head outside double.  With a head inside double, you're still putting yourself at risk for a guillotine (or during the transition to the mat for an armbar, some kind of armlock/some funk position) where Ryan would get a leg lock with ease.  If they went for a single, it would have to be a really fast one to the outside to go behind.  Going for a single exposes you to all kinds of stuff because if your arms are extended and only holding one leg, that means a leg is free to help with another kind of submission.

If you don't have a lot of submission grappling experience, wrestling and going for takedowns only really works against the less experienced grapplers/BJJ players that don't know how to deal with the pressure that wrestlers come with.  Once the belts start getting to brown, black or red, that stuff rarely works because there all so many different positioning tricks that you can only learn if you've been consistently on the mat in those situations.

So I get what you are saying, but my question is then what is the point of taking the match?  What you are describing to me means they had zero chance to win, so why try?  

Why not snap to a front headlock?  Something....anything...  What was their way to win the match?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Mokoma said:

So I get what you are saying, but my question is then what is the point of taking the match?  What you are describing to me means they had zero chance to win, so why try?  

Why not snap to a front headlock?  Something....anything...  What was their way to win the match?

I guess they took the match for the same reason Ryan took the freestyle match.  Pride and not backing down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, CA_Wrestler said:

This is like banging your head against a wall.  Almost nobody here will understand except you, me and some others who have done both.

 

1 hour ago, treep2000 said:

this could very well be true... sadly... 

What I don't like is when my wrestler brethren speak poorly of BJJ, when they hadn't attempted it themselves.  BJJ is literally the next evolution of wrestling/grappling, and begins where wrestling ends.  They are literally, the yin/yang of the grappling world.  Wrestling is for sport, but can be used in self defense.  BJJ is for self defense, and they've made a sport out of it.

I agree with both of you, it’s ridiculous that blue dragon thinks his son was winning because he lasted an extended period of time. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, CA_Wrestler said:

I guess they took the match for the same reason Ryan took the freestyle match.  Pride and not backing down.

Makes little sense.  I'd rather give myself a chance, and at least try something rather than just wait out the inevitable and then tap out to a non submission.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

Makes little sense.  I'd rather give myself a chance, and at least try something rather than just wait out the inevitable and then tap out to a non submission.

Inexperience and not knowing positions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, CA_Wrestler said:

That wouldn't be possible for the D3 guy to be a BJJ Brown belt at that age unless he were consistently training since a kid and that means that there would be 0 time to practice wrestling.

A top BJJ black belt would not be able to beat a D3 wrestler in a folkstyle or freestyle match because in order  to get to that level, they wouldn't be wrestling.  

There are always a few very rare guys that just have the knack for BJJ and can beat higher ranked guys even when they don't have the experience.  A wrestler might almost always get superior position in a wrestling point of view, but sooner or later, they're going to get off balance and mess up.  Especially no no-gi.  With a gi, forget about it. 

 

I think you misunderstood my point. A D3 wrestler is as accomplished in wrestling as a brown belt is on BJJ. And a world champion in the opposite discipline would get beat by somebody who is relatively unaccomplished. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, CA_Wrestler said:

I guess they took the match for the same reason Ryan took the freestyle match.  Pride and not backing down.

I assume there was money involved is the real reason they took the match. Why did people but the PPV is the better question

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I assume there was money involved is the real reason they took the match. Why did people but the PPV is the better question
Yep. There's not really any additional income to be made wrestling domestically so they figure they can set up a little exhibition match and talk **** to try and spark some interest. I don't see the appeal. Hell, with the low quality of this production, wrestlers could probably make more money just running a feed of live goes during training.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jim L said:

I think you misunderstood my point. A D3 wrestler is as accomplished in wrestling as a brown belt is on BJJ. And a world champion in the opposite discipline would get beat by somebody who is relatively unaccomplished. 

That's true. 

There are and were BJJ guys that were blue belts that would beat a USAW National team member in BJJ.  Mainly the more accomplished ones who were Mundial(World) Champions like say, BJ Penn since more people would know him from the UFC.  He had only 1 year of BJJ traning and he placed 2nd at the Mundials in 1998 in the Blue Belt division.  He also was the first American to ever win the Mundial in the black belt division in 2000 only having 3 years of BJJ experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, treep2000 said:

this could very well be true... sadly... 

What I don't like is when my wrestler brethren speak poorly of BJJ, when they hadn't attempted it themselves.  BJJ is literally the next evolution of wrestling/grappling, and begins where wrestling ends.  They are literally, the yin/yang of the grappling world.  Wrestling is for sport, but can be used in self defense.  BJJ is for self defense, and they've made a sport out of it.

I might be reading too much into the metaphor here, but it sounds like, by your own admission, BJJ/wrestling aren't really the yin/yang of the grappling world.  Yin/yang is opposite and equal, but I don't get the impression that they are really equal, because you note that BJJ is the next evolution. Again, I may be reading more into it.

Do you also feel the same way when BJJ practitioners speak poorly of wrestling?  I used to hear a lot more of that sort of talk in the MMA/submission grappling world for years.  At some point, I think the better BJJ practitioners saw things in wresting (take downs, a different type of top control, and conditioning) that they incorporated into their style.  I am sure differences still exist, but I think certain people on either side may view the other disdainfully.  

I haven't competed in either sport, so I am not speaking from what you might gain on the mat with people of a specific discipline. I was all in with MMA/grappling for a number of years.  I just recall scenarios where BJJ fans could be harsh critics of wrestlers just the same.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Being the very best at one thing doesn't translate to being the best at another thing even if those two things are similar.

Bjj and wrestling are two different things. The 100 meter dash and the 10,000 meter race are both running events but they are not the same thing. Simple concept.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...