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Downey (Wrestling) vs Ryan (BJJ)

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10 hours ago, LJB said:

BJJ is a great way for old people and housewives to stay in shape...

it is as least as complete a martial art as wing chun... 

I watched the Nickal match.  Came away with the firm belief that BJJ is the stupidest thing ever.

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What blows my mind is the BJJ guys on IG saying that wrestling does no good in fight compared to BJJ.  It’s like they think they can just pull guard in a street fight and force their opponent to engage on the ground

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the main problem with BJJ is that there is a school on every corner that caters to bullied kids, housewives, backwards hat guys who have never done anything real previously, etc. and all of it is promoted as self defense when it is just sport BJJ...

these poor lost people who have never actually competed in anything then get a very distorted view of grappling which is a perfect fit for the comments section...

let one of them actually get punched in the mouth while pulling gaurd sometime... they might learn something about real life then...

 

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On 3/2/2020 at 11:20 PM, LJB said:

BJJ is a great way for old people and housewives to stay in shape...

it is as least as complete a martial art as wing chun... 

Do not make fun of Wing Chun! I have watched the IpMan movies and Bruce Lee movies and have seen Wing Chun training enable them to beat up 10 and more men at a time! Bruce Lee even beat up Chuck Norris - I know, because it was recorded for all to see.

----------------------------

Styles and rules are one thing - winning an actual fight is not the same thing.

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On 3/2/2020 at 1:18 PM, Mokoma said:

So you and CA_Wrestler seem to have some experience in both.  Why would Nickal nor Downey make any attempt to win the match about Ryan with a submission?  Like what’s the point in even accepting the match?  I’m not saying either would or could, but why not go for it.  If you have no chance in the 3rd and are down big, lots of inferior wrestlers with nothing to lose go for a big move like a headlock or cement mixer (ie Rohn in national finals).  Why wouldn’t they go for a takedown, throw legs and go for a RNC? Wouldn’t it be absolutely epic if they were able to submit Ryan this way?

Because they know enough about BJJ to understand that a simple failure in the initial attempt would open the door for Ryan to execute one of probably 25+ different sequences that would land in him submitting them countless different ways.  Think about each appendage, including your neck, as a part of your body that can be attacked and "locked up" in a way that causes so much pain (or sleepy time) that it makes you tap.  That's BJJ.  BJJ is so much more technical.  It's the "chess" version of wrestling.  For every movement and action, there is a BJJ counter, and counter to that counter, and so on.  The rabbit hole of BJJ is deep.  This is why they were so hesitant... 

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On 3/2/2020 at 7:21 PM, MonagFam said:

I might be reading too much into the metaphor here, but it sounds like, by your own admission, BJJ/wrestling aren't really the yin/yang of the grappling world.  Yin/yang is opposite and equal, but I don't get the impression that they are really equal, because you note that BJJ is the next evolution. Again, I may be reading more into it.

Do you also feel the same way when BJJ practitioners speak poorly of wrestling?  I used to hear a lot more of that sort of talk in the MMA/submission grappling world for years.  At some point, I think the better BJJ practitioners saw things in wresting (take downs, a different type of top control, and conditioning) that they incorporated into their style.  I am sure differences still exist, but I think certain people on either side may view the other disdainfully.  

I haven't competed in either sport, so I am not speaking from what you might gain on the mat with people of a specific discipline. I was all in with MMA/grappling for a number of years.  I just recall scenarios where BJJ fans could be harsh critics of wrestlers just the same.  

yeah... reading too much in.  At my school, there is MUCH respect from the BJJ guys for the former wrestlers that walk in.  The former wrestlers, even me, being 20 years off the mat, are immediately competitive with the blue belts (in terms of takedowns, scrambling, etc.)  The difference is when the various chokes and arm/leg joint locks are put in place.  Wrestlers aren't used to that, and at first, are kinda "shell shocked".  Also, having been trained for so many years to stay off your back at all costs, BJJ practioners purposefully go to one's back (closed guard), as it's the 2nd best position (other than full mount) to really be in.  so many attacks can be executed, as closed guard is just the inverse position of full/top mount.  

Sure, there are "bad boys" that talk crap... but most folks that I'm training with have a ton of respect for the wrestlers, and the wrestlers that train BJJ have a ton of respect for the BJJ art.  

It's kinda like drinking Coca-Cola all your life, and talking crap about Pepsi.  Once you've tried Pepsi, you recognize that it's different, you still love Coke, but you become "OK" with Pepsi too and see the virtues of having a Pepsi as well (adding it to your menu of drinks you're willing to swill).  LOL

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On 3/3/2020 at 8:27 AM, mostTD said:

I watched the Nickal match.  Came away with the firm belief that BJJ is the stupidest thing ever.

if you purely "wrestled" a guy in a bar fight... how would the outcome be?

If you purely went "BJJ" on a guy in a bar fight... how would the outcome be?

There's a reason why BJJ schools are filled to the brim with both current/former military, cops, and firefighters, as well as former wrestlers that see the light when they realize that they're wrestling career is over but they can learn and train a whole new grappling form that blows the doors off what they thought they knew. 

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17 hours ago, LJB said:

the main problem with BJJ is that there is a school on every corner that caters to bullied kids, housewives, backwards hat guys who have never done anything real previously, etc. and all of it is promoted as self defense when it is just sport BJJ...

these poor lost people who have never actually competed in anything then get a very distorted view of grappling which is a perfect fit for the comments section...

let one of them actually get punched in the mouth while pulling gaurd sometime... they might learn something about real life then...

 

although I don't disagree, a lot of it depends on the school.  My BJJ school is basically the best in the state that I live in, and one of the best in the country.  The same goes with wrestling.  You can train as a teen with Blair, Wyoming Seminary, St. Ed's, and have pedigree, or you can come from Norwalk, OH and be a Kollin Moore (or not).  Point is... there are places to learn any of these skills that are better than others. 

Also, the punch in the mouth comment... is "punching" allowed in wrestling?  Last I checked, no.  When you learn to wrestle, you are NOT taught to how to defend against strikes.  In BJJ, you actually ARE trained what to do when someone is/attempting to strike you.  So... umm... huh?

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17 hours ago, nyum said:

What blows my mind is the BJJ guys on IG saying that wrestling does no good in fight compared to BJJ.  It’s like they think they can just pull guard in a street fight and force their opponent to engage on the ground

stats don't lie... 95% of all fights end on the ground.  

BJJ... from a self defense POV, it is still taught to NOT put oneself in that type of position (i.e. on your back).  They teach you to control the opponent, and preferably, take their back.  The point is to be able to put them in a choke, while keeping your head in a position where you can see if others are going to also try to attack you.  It's a bit ignorant to think that a BJJ practitioner would automatically pull guard in a street fight.  Anyone who's ever trained BJJ for longer than maybe 3 months would tell you that's not the case. 

As a former wrestler who now does BJJ, I'm NOT in the camp that says wrestling does no good in a fight.  Wrestling is great because you CAN take the person to the ground, and control the guy (initially).  BJJ just simply teaches you what to do other than a "pinning move", i.e. how to actually finish the fight, without striking.  

Striking in a bar fight sucks... hands and fingers break way too easy.  I'd much rather choke the guy and make him go night-night or make him tap right before their arm snaps.  Much more effective... 

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4 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

although I don't disagree, a lot of it depends on the school.  My BJJ school is basically the best in the state that I live in, and one of the best in the country.  The same goes with wrestling.  You can train as a teen with Blair, Wyoming Seminary, St. Ed's, and have pedigree, or you can come from Norwalk, OH and be a Kollin Moore (or not).  Point is... there are places to learn any of these skills that are better than others. 

Also, the punch in the mouth comment... is "punching" allowed in wrestling?  Last I checked, no.  When you learn to wrestle, you are NOT taught to how to defend against strikes.  In BJJ, you actually ARE trained what to do when someone is/attempting to strike you.  So... umm... huh?

the post was in regards to BJJ nerds in the comments section...

sport BJJ is just that... a sport... nothing more or less...

yes, some retired wrestlers do enjoy it because it is slow and controlled and their broken bodies can still do it and get some good exercise and activity while learning something new... nothing wrong with that at all... 

but, please don't make BJJ into something it is not... 

this isn't 1975... there isn't any mystery anymore...

 

 

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On 3/3/2020 at 12:20 AM, LJB said:

BJJ is a great way for old people and housewives to stay in shape...

it is as least as complete a martial art as wing chun... 

Silly take. Training can be less intense than high level wrestling and housewives and old people can train and compete in it.  Old people and housewives can stay in shape riding a road bike, that does not lessen what the guys on the Tour de France do. 

BJJ is now mostly a sport and is as complete a martial art as wrestling is.

Top level competitors train really hard and dedicate their lives to it.  It is a different sport than wrestling, neither better or worse.

I have train and competed in both, which I suspect you have not trained or competed in either

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1 minute ago, LJB said:

the post was in regards to BJJ nerds in the comments section...

sport BJJ is just that... a sport... nothing more or less...

yes, some retired wrestlers do enjoy it because it is slow and controlled and their broken bodies can still do it and get some good exercise and activity while learning something new... nothing wrong with that at all... 

but, please don't make BJJ into something it is not... 

this isn't 1975... there isn't any mystery anymore...

 

 

I'm not sure what you're implying that I'm making it into.  Yes.  I fully agree that former wrestlers should check it out.  It helps quell that fire that does continue to burn inside for 1:1 combat.  Since I've started, i've lost 30 pounds or so, and am feeling like I felt in my 20's, all while learning "real" self defense so that I may further protect myself and may family.  BJJ is great for that.  

Sport BJJ is similar to Sport Wrestling though... a sport... nothing more or less.  I'm not following why there may be a sense of superiority of wrestling over BJJ, or vice versa for that matter, from you, or really any one else.  Until you've tried both, in earnest, I think it's disingenuous to hold such a strong "social media warrior" opinion of them.  

So what am I making BJJ into again, other than a fun sport/self defense art that is in the family of grappling, just like wrestling, and is cool AF?

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2 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

I'm not sure what you're implying that I'm making it into.  Yes.  I fully agree that former wrestlers should check it out.  It helps quell that fire that does continue to burn inside for 1:1 combat.  Since I've started, i've lost 30 pounds or so, and am feeling like I felt in my 20's, all while learning "real" self defense so that I may further protect myself and may family.  BJJ is great for that.  

Sport BJJ is similar to Sport Wrestling though... a sport... nothing more or less.  I'm not following why there may be a sense of superiority of wrestling over BJJ, or vice versa for that matter, from you, or really any one else.  Until you've tried both, in earnest, I think it's disingenuous to hold such a strong "social media warrior" opinion of them.  

So what am I making BJJ into again, other than a fun sport/self defense art that is in the family of grappling, just like wrestling, and is cool AF?

you mentioned bar fight in a comment... i really don't have to say much more than that...

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Just now, LJB said:

you mentioned bar fight in a comment... i really don't have to say much more than that...

so...?  BJJ is better in a barfight than wrestling... i mentioned it because it was brought up by a previous poster.  Unsure where you're headed with this.

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3 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

so...?  BJJ is better in a barfight than wrestling... i mentioned it because it was brought up by a previous poster.  Unsure where you're headed with this.

hey, you quoted me...

i take exception with your thoughts that BJJ is better in a real fight situation... that is a silly take... it is a sport... that is all... 

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8 minutes ago, Jim L said:

Silly take. Training can be less intense than high level wrestling and housewives and old people can train and compete in it.  Old people and housewives can stay in shape riding a road bike, that does not lessen what the guys on the Tour de France do. 

BJJ is now mostly a sport and is as complete a martial art as wrestling is.

Top level competitors train really hard and dedicate their lives to it.  It is a different sport than wrestling, neither better or worse.

I have train and competed in both, which I suspect you have not trained or competed in either

i don't disagree with this...

no, i have not wrestled... i have been around the highest level of wrestling in this country for years... 

yes, i have done some BJJ... i have done some other martial arts as well... 

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1 hour ago, treep2000 said:

Because they know enough about BJJ to understand that a simple failure in the initial attempt would open the door for Ryan to execute one of probably 25+ different sequences that would land in him submitting them countless different ways.  Think about each appendage, including your neck, as a part of your body that can be attacked and "locked up" in a way that causes so much pain (or sleepy time) that it makes you tap.  That's BJJ.  BJJ is so much more technical.  It's the "chess" version of wrestling.  For every movement and action, there is a BJJ counter, and counter to that counter, and so on.  The rabbit hole of BJJ is deep.  This is why they were so hesitant... 

So what is the point in taking the match then?

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1 hour ago, treep2000 said:

stats don't lie... 95% of all fights end on the ground.  

BJJ... from a self defense POV, it is still taught to NOT put oneself in that type of position (i.e. on your back).  They teach you to control the opponent, and preferably, take their back.  The point is to be able to put them in a choke, while keeping your head in a position where you can see if others are going to also try to attack you.  It's a bit ignorant to think that a BJJ practitioner would automatically pull guard in a street fight.  Anyone who's ever trained BJJ for longer than maybe 3 months would tell you that's not the case. 

As a former wrestler who now does BJJ, I'm NOT in the camp that says wrestling does no good in a fight.  Wrestling is great because you CAN take the person to the ground, and control the guy (initially).  BJJ just simply teaches you what to do other than a "pinning move", i.e. how to actually finish the fight, without striking.  

Striking in a bar fight sucks... hands and fingers break way too easy.  I'd much rather choke the guy and make him go night-night or make him tap right before their arm snaps.  Much more effective... 

I’ve competed in take down tourneys with BJJ guys and let’s just say if one of those dudes can successfully take a wrestler to the ground that dude wasn’t a wrestler. That’s one of the most beautiful aspects of wrestling. You get to choose where the fight takes place. 

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14 minutes ago, nyum said:

I’ve competed in take down tourneys with BJJ guys and let’s just say if one of those dudes can successfully take a wrestler to the ground that dude wasn’t a wrestler. That’s one of the most beautiful aspects of wrestling. You get to choose where the fight takes place. 

but...

CHESS???

COUNTER TO COUNTER????

RABBIT HOLES????

BAR FIGHTS????

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2 hours ago, treep2000 said:

yeah... reading too much in.  At my school, there is MUCH respect from the BJJ guys for the former wrestlers that walk in.  The former wrestlers, even me, being 20 years off the mat, are immediately competitive with the blue belts (in terms of takedowns, scrambling, etc.)  The difference is when the various chokes and arm/leg joint locks are put in place.  Wrestlers aren't used to that, and at first, are kinda "shell shocked".  Also, having been trained for so many years to stay off your back at all costs, BJJ practioners purposefully go to one's back (closed guard), as it's the 2nd best position (other than full mount) to really be in.  so many attacks can be executed, as closed guard is just the inverse position of full/top mount.  

Sure, there are "bad boys" that talk crap... but most folks that I'm training with have a ton of respect for the wrestlers, and the wrestlers that train BJJ have a ton of respect for the BJJ art.  

It's kinda like drinking Coca-Cola all your life, and talking crap about Pepsi.  Once you've tried Pepsi, you recognize that it's different, you still love Coke, but you become "OK" with Pepsi too and see the virtues of having a Pepsi as well (adding it to your menu of drinks you're willing to swill).  LOL

This was my almost my identical experience as a former wrestler  who transitioned to BJJ for several years before a old hip injury that resurfaced forced me to give it up. A few years later I'm now rock climbing (indoor rock climbing gyms have exploded over the last 5 years) which is about the most fun I've ever had while staying in great shape. Still I do miss grappling.

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2 hours ago, nyum said:

I’ve competed in take down tourneys with BJJ guys and let’s just say if one of those dudes can successfully take a wrestler to the ground that dude wasn’t a wrestler. That’s one of the most beautiful aspects of wrestling. You get to choose where the fight takes place. 

Agreed with this as well.  that's not their bag.. but.. if the wrestler takes him down... what's the wrestler to do next (keeping with the grappling).  Pin him?  The BJJ guy is gonna say "so what, now it's my turn".

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26 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

Agreed with this as well.  that's not their bag.. but.. if the wrestler takes him down... what's the wrestler to do next (keeping with the grappling).  Pin him?  The BJJ guy is gonna say "so what, now it's my turn".

Wrestler doesn’t take him down. Wrestler doesn’t engage in street fights. In mma type bout, wrestler keeps it standing and scores take down at end of each round. Wins due to take down defense, near equal striking, ring control and more takedowns scored. 

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